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Post by stewartm on Dec 1, 2016 23:50:23 GMT 11
FYI, evcables.co.uk do a 2m 32 amp type 2 to type 1 for £97.50. I ordered 2, one for a mate, total freight with DHL to Oz 5 days was 35. I dealt with them when I was in France and they are good. Wife has limited boot space, Original Nissan EVSE Clipper creek LCS15 EVSE Setec 10kw chamedo portable EVSE Long 15 amp extension Some adaptors for 3 phase And now a Tesla adaptor cable
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Post by jake on Dec 2, 2016 10:08:39 GMT 11
FYI, evcables.co.uk do a 2m 32 amp type 2 to type 1 for £97.50. I ordered 2, one for a mate, total freight with DHL to Oz 5 days was 35. I dealt with them when I was in France and they are good. Wife has limited boot space, Original Nissan EVSE Clipper creek LCS15 EVSE Setec 10kw chamedo portable EVSE Long 15 amp extension Some adaptors for 3 phase And now a Tesla adaptor cable Wow! You are ready for anything!
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MDK
EV Enthusiast
Posts: 14
LEAF OWNER?: No
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Post by MDK on Dec 2, 2016 17:48:27 GMT 11
TESLA 3 owners have no "free TESLA" charging included in the purchase, unlike other models. Maybe you will have to do what LEAF owners have to do!. Please don't confuse Tesla superchargers with Tesla destination chargers. The "free charging" that may or may not be included on Model 3 (but is yet to be confirmed) refers to the Tesla superchargers, which can provide up to 120kW DC and Tesla pay for the power (and in Australia they only buy "green" energy) Destination chargers are up to 22kW AC and are supplied to businesses free of charge and Tesla often pays for or contributes towards the installation costs, but the power is paid for by the business hosting it. The adapter this thread refers to works with destination chargers. It will not work with superchargers.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Dec 3, 2016 8:06:32 GMT 11
Indeed, there is absolutely no confusion from my side regarding DC or AC. Official release from Elron himself refers to T3 charging, which is where I sourced my information. There is quite a big difference between the high-end "everything" and the T3. All that grinds my gears is self riteous blah about whose charger is what. My point is that we are all in the same semi-asphyxiated position. Once the division some are opening up takes momentum, the almost self inflicted charger for 'my' car will begin to cause problems. I dare say that very few, if any would say anything. If the shoe was on the other foot, would I grizzle about who is using it?. I think not. Now the point to heed is NSW(in particular) is dragging its feet with chargers, and probably! Has 'slept' with TESLA on the charger standard if done for free on the criminally over priced when compared to other countries price tag, it may come crashing down, leaving the likes of Nissan and other manufacturers in the charge point debacle, as the popular units. Bear in mind that one, if not the main sales points for the overpriced by tax vehicle, is the charger network. Take that away, and head in another direction, the riteous may eat their ideas. All it takes is another Baird-turn!. I have no problem offering free charging to any EV that needs one. Create a division, and we may as well go back to soot-pump based vehicles.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Dec 3, 2016 8:12:56 GMT 11
And back on point. Adapters are a very useful item to possess, and those squirreling away at them are actually furthering the EV & and environmental cause, and the point they can use "TESLA" chargers is another leap forward. I haven't personally had to use mine, but if! I did, I'd make no apology for doing so. There are very few EV's actually in use, and the chances that it would impact any power bill is almost laughable. This thread is going to be good reference in the future to many, so any points made have value.
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Post by markrmarkr on Dec 3, 2016 21:13:20 GMT 11
FYI, evcables.co.uk do a 2m 32 amp type 2 to type 1 for £97.50. I ordered 2, one for a mate, total freight with DHL to Oz 5 days was 35. I dealt with them when I was in France and they are good. Wife has limited boot space, Original Nissan EVSE Clipper creek LCS15 EVSE Setec 10kw chamedo portable EVSE Long 15 amp extension Some adaptors for 3 phase And now a Tesla adaptor cable Stuart, did you get your 10KW Chademo to work, using a Tesla HPWC as the 3 phase supply? That would be very useful.
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Post by stewartm on Dec 3, 2016 22:09:26 GMT 11
No I haven't pursued that as yet due to competing priorities. Maybe over Xmas I will knock up the interface.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Dec 4, 2016 6:54:39 GMT 11
FYI, evcables.co.uk do a 2m 32 amp type 2 to type 1 for £97.50. I ordered 2, one for a mate, total freight with DHL to Oz 5 days was 35. I dealt with them when I was in France and they are good. Wife has limited boot space, Original Nissan EVSE Clipper creek LCS15 EVSE Setec 10kw chamedo portable EVSE Long 15 amp extension Some adaptors for 3 phase And now a Tesla adaptor cable Stuart, did you get your 10KW Chademo to work, using a Tesla HPWC as the 3 phase supply? That would be very useful. I'd have a trawl of the US & UK/European internet. It has been done!. Handy with an iron & electrical theory, and you can easily cobble one together.
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Post by EVangelist on Dec 4, 2016 9:22:18 GMT 11
Just imagine the black market dripping with code changers to charge without any Gov cash grabbing. The up-shot is how much would it cost to keep on changing the way it functions as revised code changers were produced. It takes less than 15 seconds to change it, and getting any kind of criminal label attached to it would cost a massive amount of time & resource. Btw. There are these "things" already available, but very little interest in them in reality. I'm not sure I understood any of that comment. The VIN interrogation done by a Tesla supercharger is proprietary to Tesla. And I would expect it's encrypted as well so that simple sniffing the data packets exchanged would not reveal the recipe to facilitate unauthorised use. So unless a third party has managed to hack the protocol and has a list of VINs that work (which would be theft from the owners of those VINs), plugging a non-authorized Tesla EV into a Tesla supercharger will elicit precisely zero electrons. The theft would be more blatant once Tesla starts selling kWh blocks to new vehicles after 1 Jan 2017, because then any unauthorised charging would appear as a dollar charge on the real VIN owner's Tesla SC account. The adapters to use Tesla destination chargers are borderline fair game, if you leave a note on your dash and the venue is OK with you doing it. Trying to use a Tesla supercharger unauthorised is theft, pure and simple, and I would never encourage it or support it.
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Post by stewartm on Dec 4, 2016 23:36:22 GMT 11
The theory is ok, just need to program an interface to look at the signalling, SAE J1772 and IEC 61851-1 specify the PWM signal with indicated capacity. As such I need to read that and ensure it is 3 phase wth a minimum per phase of fifteen amps. Then tell the circuit to connect and supply power. I'm sure Jeff could knock up a micropic to do that easily..
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Post by 4wardthinking on Dec 5, 2016 5:07:51 GMT 11
Packet sniffing isn't the method they use from what I've been told. It looks like simple VIN ID spoofing. The coding can't be that complicated in reality. PIC alone isn't capable, ASIC use would be required. Other way is to simplify the process. After all, the battery and charging is very simple. Add another way to control the absorption rate, or externally controlled way . I think that's how it's been mastered. The actual "theft" of power is s little more complex to accuse a person of in reality. Simplified, it appears so easy to say. There are a myriad of caveats I can think of, so consider the actual cost to do, and the small cost of power taken. It's all about the Dollar. Good advertising etc can come from being able to have the convenience, and sales will benefit. Now if people begin to get protective(over something that doesn't actually belong to them), then the possibility of vandalism etc will come into play... yet another expense, and open this door, it's not worth the corporate outlay. For the next 10 years or so, I dare say manufacturers need all the abilities from all manufacturers they can. A car sold is worth far more than a few Kw relatively. Owners can very easily ruin a great concept in personal transport if they don't tether their ways. This could spell disaster for the planet. ] Now this "blocks of power" is looking like the TESLA owner may prefer to use "our"!! power instead. If this is the case world-wide, so probably the roles may reverse then. They may be issued ".. with apologies for... " notices to hang on the charger then. See where this is going?.
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Post by jeffthewalker on Dec 5, 2016 6:16:55 GMT 11
The theory is ok, just need to program an interface to look at the signalling, SAE J1772 and IEC 61851-1 specify the PWM signal with indicated capacity. As such I need to read that and ensure it is 3 phase wth a minimum per phase of fifteen amps. Then tell the circuit to connect and supply power. I'm sure Jeff could knock up a micropic to do that easily.. ;) I would be interested in such a project. Once the protocol is known it would be relatively straightforward. I have arrived back on the farm (yesterday) and after a few days rehabilitation I'll be in touch.
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Post by stewartm on Dec 5, 2016 12:14:22 GMT 11
Not affiliated in any way, but the service I have got here was the same in France. www.evcables.co.uk 4 days delivery with DHL from UK to Sunshine Coast. 2m J1772 to Mennekes with a nice zipped case. I also agree with Evangalst comment above, the Tesla superchargers are locked for a reason, the huge infrastructure cost that was probably included in part of the car cost, hence it is a resource that has been paid for in expectation by the Tesla owner. Firstly its locked, i.e. someone is protecting property, secondly to then pick that lock and utilize that resource is considered theft in my opinion. The destination chargers are a little different, as from the website, open to the public. I agree that if you are tying one up, leave a note to Tesla owners to unplug and use if they need to. You are also not picking any lock. If they ever put a charge pass RFID etc on the destination chargers, then I see them as off limits. Just my thoughts...
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Post by EVangelist on Dec 5, 2016 22:40:11 GMT 11
See where this is going?. No.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Dec 6, 2016 7:11:13 GMT 11
See where this is going?. No. Read it again. What happens if TESLA decide to pull out?. The triple price tag won't be competitive in the future, given other manufacturers are building vehicles almost of similar calibre. Toyota/Lexus to name one. Suddenly there are more for other EV's. TESLA chargers become state property(thanks for letting us sell the only car you can buy).
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Post by stewartm on Dec 6, 2016 12:38:39 GMT 11
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Post by markrmarkr on Dec 6, 2016 14:35:03 GMT 11
Yes it's a bit expensive. I think the 20KW from Setec looks like a much beter option. I've seen it quoted at USD $5500 and $6000. I'd expect it would work with the adaptor you were looking at too.
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Post by EVangelist on Dec 6, 2016 17:31:35 GMT 11
What happens if TESLA decide to pull out? The triple price tag won't be competitive in the future, given other manufacturers are building vehicles almost of similar calibre. Toyota/Lexus to name one. Suddenly there are more for other EV's. TESLA chargers become state property(thanks for letting us sell the only car you can buy). I don't think any of that is likely to happen. First, no-one is making EVs of similar calibre to Tesla. It will take others a minimum of 5 years to catch up. And in the very unlikely event that Tesla did pull out of Oz, or went bust, someone would buy their assets and IP including chargers. The government would not be a buyer, or resume the assets.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Dec 7, 2016 19:24:47 GMT 11
I wouldn't be so sure of any of the remarks there. TESLA are already being closely chased by many new to the EV market. The Feral Gov can, & do as they wish. Whose land are the chargers placed upon. There has to be more to the exorbitant price here than ..it's American". Like I've said, you can buy a $264k item elsewhere for sub $100k. And I'm sure the mark-up just isn't protecting the Holden & Cart trabant industry.
As far as the product, albeit a good one at high range(just for now). There are some lesser known units on the market, but appear to be a great EV. If I had a free choice, I'd be torn between a few. They have created enormous leaps in EV technology, but that's a hard one to maintain with many manufacturers looking poised to change the bench-mark super-EV. At this time, I'd love to be able to wind the clock forward, alas I cannot. NISSAN have done their research, and for the price, the LEAF is even better value. I feel the Lexus marque may have an offering in the wings. Their super-car products made any manufacturer look envious. Remember the Godzilla, and how it changed the concept?. Maybe.......
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Post by EVangelist on Dec 17, 2016 21:30:42 GMT 11
Here's one of the two Tesla destination chargers at the Executive Inn, New Lambton (Newcastle). Too far for my Leaf to make it from Sydney, so even with an adaptor I couldn't use it! They've installed them in a odd place, in the courtyard in the front of the hotel, not under cover, and if a car was actually parked to use them, almost blocking the driveway. The plug is locked away as you can see, so for guest use only, you need to get the key from reception. They must have thought that if they installed it in the underground car park (which does get quite full) they would block out a space that might be rarely used. Or that it would get ICEd.
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Post by Phoebe on Dec 18, 2016 3:06:06 GMT 11
Too far for my Leaf to make it from Sydney, so even with an adaptor I couldn't use it! Too far for your first charge, but fine for your second.
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Post by EVangelist on Dec 18, 2016 9:15:21 GMT 11
Too far for your first charge, but fine for your second. True. If there was a DCFC somewhere convenient en-route (say at Ourimbah) we might consider it. Unfortunately there isn't. On Plugshare I can't even see an L2 charger anywhere between Sydney and Newcastle - only a few Tesla HPWCs in the Central Coast and some of these are not publicly accessible or accessible 24/7. And with 2 antsy teenagers in the back, even a L2 charger / Tesla HPWC (with an adaptor) would not cut it! Particularly if we are traveling late. So unfortunately it is ICE until I get my Model 3.
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Post by Phoebe on Dec 18, 2016 9:38:35 GMT 11
Too far for your first charge, but fine for your second. 2 antsy teenagers in the back, Ah, as a great grandmother long past all that, I had overlooked the restrictions you might be facing
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Post by markrmarkr on Feb 7, 2017 23:25:54 GMT 11
Stewart, I had a look at this and I don't think it will work. I think this is intended to make your own J1772 or Mennekes charging station (EVSE), whereas what you want to do is go the other way - use a Mennekes (Tesla) charging station to provide 3 phase power. That said I'm sure it could be done. Also I found This. It implies you can use your 10KW portable Chademo, with either single or three phase power. If this is true it should be possible to use a 7KW J1772 charge point with a suitable adaptor on your 10KW Chademo too. Of course you would have to wind it back to 7KW
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Post by stewartm on Feb 8, 2017 12:36:35 GMT 11
The SETEC is pre-wired at the factory for either 3 phase or single phase. I went for the 3 phase option, so that isn't available to me now. I see that link equates to $7700, bit too expensive for me. About a third of that from the factory. I admit to being a little confused, the signalling to tell the Tesla charger to supply power still comes from the car? So if the TESLA EVSE can supply 32amp (PWM 50%), detect this, then place an 882 ohm resistance between CP & PE, then the TESLA EVSE will deliver power on the three phases. I haven't progressed it further yet, too busy with work ATM.
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EVtricity
Half Charge
Posts: 66
LEAF OWNER?: Yes
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Post by EVtricity on Feb 8, 2017 20:23:48 GMT 11
I admit to being a little confused, the signalling to tell the Tesla charger to supply power still comes from the car? So if the TESLA EVSE can supply 32amp (PWM 50%), detect this, then place an 882 ohm resistance between CP & PE, then the TESLA EVSE will deliver power on the three phases. I haven't progressed it further yet, too busy with work ATM. Unfortunately, the Tesla 3 phase stations don't provide power using a simple 882ohm resistor (unlike the single phase stations that do provide power with an 882 ohm resistor). Even if you follow the J1772/Mennekes signalling sequence of using a 2.74k resistor first then adding a 1.3k in parallel to get to an effective 882 ohm resistor, the three phase Tesla destination chargers won't provide power. Seems like Tesla do something different in their three phase stations. There are discussions about this on the Tesla forums (as Roadster users are not able to charge at some of the Tesla 3 phase stations).
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Post by stewartm on Feb 9, 2017 15:38:38 GMT 11
How then does the mennekes to J1772 cable work on the leaf?
confused
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Post by markrmarkr on Feb 9, 2017 19:13:10 GMT 11
The SETEC is pre-wired at the factory for either 3 phase or single phase. I went for the 3 phase option, so that isn't available to me now. I've been asking a lot of questions of both Setec and the Green Frontiers people. You are correct that the unit is pre-configured to be either three phase or single phase, but not both. Green frontiers last FB post is: "when Setec engineers were here, we got them to configure the unit so it work with both options. it requires a little work, opening up the box and making a little change of wiring every time you change the phase. Not a big deal but may be not 100% convenient either if you are not a little bit of a geek". Previous Green Frontiers FB posts were ... misleading. Also,Did I mention that Greg and I have ordered Setec chargers too. I think they will be the same as your one Stewart. When they arrive we will have to put the Australian 32 Amp 3 phase plug on them, and work out were the charging places are, and get them on plug share.... We will present at the next AEVA meeting in Sydney for those who want to see it. You don't need to be a member to come. I think we will also present at one of the AEVA weekly meetups. PM me or Greg if you would like to come along to that.
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EVtricity
Half Charge
Posts: 66
LEAF OWNER?: Yes
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Post by EVtricity on Feb 9, 2017 22:54:43 GMT 11
How then does the mennekes to J1772 cable work on the leaf? That's an excellent question! The Mennekes to J1772 adaptors do work for our Leafs on single and three phase Tesla destination stations but the same adaptors don't work for the Outlander PHEV and neither does an adaptor with the stndard J1772 resistor sequence as mentioned above. So, the Leaf communicates to the Tesla stations differently to the Outlander and the test rig. I've tried to replicate what the Leaf does but that's difficult without an oscilloscope to understand the voltage that is created by the resistors applied by the Leaf. If you can find anyone else on the planet who has documented how the Leaf communicates over its pilot signal I'd love to know about it. With that information we can configure adaptors for those who want to use the three phase stations for their Chademo chargers (when there are no Tesla drivers using them of course).
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Post by markrmarkr on Feb 10, 2017 11:43:05 GMT 11
How then does the mennekes to J1772 cable work on the leaf? That's an excellent question! The Mennekes to J1772 adaptors do work for our Leafs on single and three phase Tesla destination stations but the same adaptors don't work for the Outlander PHEV and neither does an adaptor with the stndard J1772 resistor sequence as mentioned above. So, the Leaf communicates to the Tesla stations differently to the Outlander and the test rig. I've tried to replicate what the Leaf does but that's difficult without an oscilloscope to understand the voltage that is created by the resistors applied by the Leaf. If you can find anyone else on the planet who has documented how the Leaf communicates over its pilot signal I'd love to know about it. With that information we can configure adaptors for those who want to use the three phase stations for their Chademo chargers (when there are no Tesla drivers using them of course). I've had a look at the wiki/specs for J1772, and IEC 62196, and I believe what you are doing should work. One gotcha I discovered while testing my Type 2 to Type 1 adaptor is: Apparently Tesla HPWCs introduce a semi random delay from "when they detect a vehicle wanting charge" to "when they provide it". In my testing I had plugged everything in and was just about to give up, when all of a sudden it started working. This happened on my very first attempt to use the adaptor. The delay I observed may have been 30 seconds or more. Upon researching this I found that apparently the reason they introduce this semi random delay is to avoid power surges at critical times such as: 1. where the HPWC is recovering from a power failure/blackout, discovers a vehicle plugged in requesting power. 2. where the utility swiches over to off peak billing rates (10pm for us). Hope this helps. Mark
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