jin
Half Charge
Posts: 54
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Post by jin on Feb 18, 2019 9:21:00 GMT 11
Go for the refurbish option then.
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Post by rusdy on Feb 18, 2019 12:13:58 GMT 11
That's ridiculous. Looks like my car will be headed for the wreckers, then. How is it sustainable to be building cars with an 8 year life? Echoing you here. I'm hoping in 3~5 years* time there will be an aftermarket option for the battery replacement. I doubt it though... So, most likely scenario for me is to sell mine super cheap (as parts). It's such a pity for a great car (according to me at least) becomes disposable due to non-replaceable batteries (due to unrealistic cost). Although, to be honest, any product these days are disposable (even Tesla). The difference is, their (Tesla) lifespan are much longer. *5 years, as at that point of time my Leaf will pass the point of practicality (merely 50km inner-city range on full charged). If all car parks have charging port then, that will indeed extend my Leaf usability. I originally hoped for a replacement battery, so I can use the car until personal transport is banned on roads. My crystal ball tells me sometimes before 2050 (shared-self-driving-cars will be it). Or bicycles...
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Post by brunohill on Feb 18, 2019 20:48:10 GMT 11
I wonder what they would quote for supplying a set of cells only for a 40kWh battery pack?
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Post by empowerrepower on Feb 18, 2019 22:02:46 GMT 11
Perhaps there is strength in numbers - if all the owners with out-of-warranty 4-bars-down batteries got together, and made a plan on how to approach Nissan and publicise the situation, it might be more successful than individual efforts. There is a possibly an argument under Australian Consumer Law that such a major part should be more long-lasting. I personally think it is crazy of Nissan not to keep owners happy, given how few cars are out there. When they launch the new Leaf, reputation will matter.
I've been watching Andy from Unplugged EV (Outlander PHEV driver), based in Qld, who started a youtube channel and organised a private online group to coordinate efforts to get Mitsubishi to deal with rapid battery degradation issues.
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bje
EV Enthusiast
Posts: 36
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Post by bje on Feb 19, 2019 6:37:33 GMT 11
It is clear to me that a replacement battery must be available under Australian Consumer Law. The problem is that they are available, just at a punitive price. When my local dealership calls me to drum up some interest in the second generation LEAF, it will be a good opportunity to tell them why I will not be buying another Nissan.
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Post by pharmadave on Feb 19, 2019 18:33:13 GMT 11
Perhaps there is strength in numbers - if all the owners with out-of-warranty 4-bars-down batteries got together, and made a plan on how to approach Nissan and publicise the situation, it might be more successful than individual efforts. There is a possibly an argument under Australian Consumer Law that such a major part should be more long-lasting. I personally think it is crazy of Nissan not to keep owners happy, given how few cars are out there. When they launch the new Leaf, reputation will matter. I've been watching Andy from Unplugged EV (Outlander PHEV driver), based in Qld, who started a youtube channel and organised a private online group to coordinate efforts to get Mitsubishi to deal with rapid battery degradation issues. I’ve been following his progress with his PHEV battery replacement. It seems like his car’s BMS software is really confused with the state of health of the battery even after replacement. He also cites the lack of communication and transparency as a primary frustration. It seems none of the people he interacts with at the dealership level and the customer service level has any idea what’s happening and the one or two people who do know aren’t bothering to tell anyone else in the company about it. I totally empathise with him on this point. At least I have a relatively sympathetic dealer service department in Blackburn Nissan but so far none of my enquiries and requests for a call back from Nissan Headoffice has been returned. (My queries with Nissan H.O. are to do with Nissan Connect App and CarWings)
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Post by johnmath on Feb 19, 2019 21:29:16 GMT 11
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Post by pharmadave on Feb 19, 2019 22:04:04 GMT 11
In a word... apathy... There is such a small customer base in Australia that the cost of lifting a finger from Nissan Australia costs more than they’ll ever get back. Those replacement battery packs are given at those prices on the condition of trading in the old pack. The old packs are then repurposed into refurbished packs or home storage as second life batteries. None of those initiatives exist in Australia and the economics of shipping it to USA and Japan to participate in those programs is uneconomic.
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Post by duncan on Feb 21, 2019 20:10:31 GMT 11
Not apathy, simply a deliberate rorting of a monopoly.
This is an ebay chain I had with a local dealer about a part I need for one of my FFBs....
Listing: New Genuine Nissan C11 Tiida ECM Relay PN:284B7CW29E RRP$330
Me: Hi, can you please double check you have the correct part number and/or price for this listing? 284B7-CW29E sells for $1.72 plus postage on amayama but I'd rather buy locally. I assume you don't intend a 12,000% markup.
Response: hello djhandle, I have checked with Nissan and $278.20 in the list price, the best I can do is $180.00inc.
thanks Kind Regards,
Parts Department, Werribee and Western Automotive Group
So...no, they didn't mean to mark it up 12,000%. It was actually meant to be $330/1.72 = 19,100%.
Having seen how Nissan Oz pressured the dealers over Japanese import parts over the last 15 years, they only respond when a competitor forced them to. And in this case, unlike in the US, local laws don't force them to make information available to non dealer servicers to mate the new battery to the car...
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bje
EV Enthusiast
Posts: 36
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Post by bje on Feb 27, 2019 23:20:56 GMT 11
A friend called a Nissan dealership in Japan to ask about the USD 2850 refurbished batteries. They are available, but only to Japanese owners. OK, so no joy there!
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Post by Feng on Feb 28, 2019 0:18:36 GMT 11
It's like the forbidden fruit! I'm still convinced the cheapest way to breathe new life in a LEAF here is to source a wrecked one from New Zealand and attempt to swap the modules over yourself. I used to be more optimistic about the future of batteries for our cars, now not so much.
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Post by brunohill on Feb 28, 2019 1:55:54 GMT 11
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Post by brunohill on Feb 28, 2019 13:45:49 GMT 11
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graeme
EV Tyre Kicker
Posts: 3
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Post by graeme on Mar 1, 2019 14:17:10 GMT 11
Hi all, first time poster. I own a 2012 Leaf and live in the Blue Mountains. I am very happy with the car. It has less than 20K on the clock and on a good day it will charge up to close to 120 kms on Eco mode.
What I was interested in was if there was any replacement batteries from Nissan or third parties in Australia.
Not seen any news in Australia but there was this when I searched online.
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Post by rusdy on Mar 1, 2019 14:54:36 GMT 11
Welcome graeme ! Do join the fun in this thread! Short answer: no.
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Post by Feng on Mar 1, 2019 16:34:58 GMT 11
Welcome graeme and thanks rusdy, I've moved the comments to the right thread. Sorry we haven't got better news for you here!
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Post by jacky on Mar 2, 2019 9:53:07 GMT 11
The current heatwave in Melbourne finally destroyed the 4th bar of my battery last night! I am very very happy about the lost as it is still under 5 years (brought it new on Sept, 2014) 10,000k battery warranty.
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Post by empowerrepower on Mar 2, 2019 17:15:37 GMT 11
So congrats?!
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bje
EV Enthusiast
Posts: 36
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Post by bje on Mar 5, 2019 10:32:33 GMT 11
Nissan USA offers a battery replacement program (and they take back the old battery for recycling). Why isn't Nissan Australia doing this? It could easily be done.
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Post by pharmadave on Mar 5, 2019 16:41:40 GMT 11
Yay! New battery for jacky!
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Post by pharmadave on Mar 5, 2019 16:48:03 GMT 11
Nissan USA offers a battery replacement program (and they take back the old battery for recycling). Why isn't Nissan Australia doing this? It could easily be done. I think there is a real lack of financial incentive for them to do so. The cost of running such a program for the 500-odd 1st gen Leafs that were sold here would simply by uneconomic. Those traded-in cells would be tested and then put into energy storage batteries i.e. powerwall-like device for domestic use. Such a product does not exist here so they would need to be either recycled for raw materials or sent overseas for second life use (I can't see either of those use cases being economically viable).
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Post by brunohill on Mar 5, 2019 23:32:54 GMT 11
I would buy the old battery pack. The remaining kWh would have to be better value than the same kWh of new lead acid batteries. I might end up with the 1st Aussie LEAF powerwall.
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craggles
EV Enthusiast
Posts: 18
LEAF OWNER?: Yes
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Post by craggles on Mar 6, 2019 10:05:14 GMT 11
I would buy the old battery pack. The remaining kWh would have to be better value than the same kWh of new lead acid batteries. I might end up with the 1st Aussie LEAF powerwall. It has been done with old laptop batteries. Check out HBPowerwall on YouTube. He lives in the next suburb over from me.
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bje
EV Enthusiast
Posts: 36
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Post by bje on Mar 6, 2019 12:02:55 GMT 11
Nissan USA offers a battery replacement program (and they take back the old battery for recycling). Why isn't Nissan Australia doing this? It could easily be done. I think there is a real lack of financial incentive for them to do so. The cost of running such a program for the 500-odd 1st gen Leafs that were sold here would simply by uneconomic. So it's cool to just hang 500 owners out to dry? For such a small fleet, it would not cost a lot to at least take care of the customers (not every owner will come looking for another pack). I think this sends a terrible message to prospective buyers of the second-generation LEAF. There is no guarantee that a battery replacement program will exist for that model, either.
I'll be going elsewhere for my next EV.
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Post by pharmadave on Mar 6, 2019 12:05:03 GMT 11
I think there is a real lack of financial incentive for them to do so. The cost of running such a program for the 500-odd 1st gen Leafs that were sold here would simply by uneconomic. So it's cool to just hang 500 owners out to dry? For such a small fleet, it would not cost a lot to at least take care of the customers (not every owner will come looking for another pack). I think this sends a terrible message to prospective buyers of the second-generation LEAF. There is no guarantee that a battery replacement program will exist for that model, either.
I'll be going elsewhere for my next EV.
Bingo
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Post by rusdy on Mar 6, 2019 14:35:10 GMT 11
So it's cool to just hang 500 owners out to dry? For such a small fleet, it would not cost a lot to at least take care of the customers (not every owner will come looking for another pack). I think this sends a terrible message to prospective buyers of the second-generation LEAF. There is no guarantee that a battery replacement program will exist for that model, either. I'll be going elsewhere for my next EV.
In my opinion, this is a deliberate business decision from Nissan Australia, i.e. cope the 'collateral damage'. Putting on my business head on, the cost is still less to 'hang 500 owners out to dry', even if the first 500 customers gone elsewhere (including the bad mouthing effect). They still have other potential customers with incoming Leaf plus (which will addresses first gen problems). Hence, I put this comment on their facebook page (as if my comments going to make any difference on their business decision): " We (nissan leaf gen1 owners) are really hoping Nissan Australia can make this (battery replacement under 10k AUD).
I understand, that, in the business sense we (early adopters) are collateral damage, I.e. nissan Australia can afford to lose us as your future customers.
However, I'm hoping that will not be the case. The leaf is such a great car. I'll be sad if my car destined to scrap yard in 3~4 years time despite it's still a great car then (but unusable due to its batteries )" Yes, we are the collateral damage. Yes, I'm sad as my first gen leaf is destined to the scrap yard in near future (about 3 ~ 4 years). I'm really hoping Australia will be running on affordable fully autonomous car fleet by then, so I don't need personal ownership of any kind of car. Apparently I'm *almost* part of millennial culture that don't mind in not owning a car .
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Post by pharmadave on Mar 6, 2019 14:49:27 GMT 11
Yep, totally agree with rusdy Gen 1 Leaf owners pay the early adopter tax in both ways: 1. Financially - literally 2. Minimal head office after sales support Nissan Australia will have a lot of leaf 40kwh and 60kwh buyers who have no idea about what their history with the 24kwh was. Even if they do, it might be based off what they hear or read about overseas which is a lot more than what has been done in Australia. (in fact I just met a Leaf owner a few weeks ago who was under the impression his 24kwh battery was under an 8 year warranty rather than 5 years because in the USA the warranty for the 2nd gen Leafs were extended to 8 years, i decided to not correct him as he was selling the car anyway) Transport Evoloved just put up a piece (link below) where the host explained that many 1st Gen Leaf owners have been turned off buying another due to poor support. However, that said Nissan will not be short of new potential buyers who are fresh into EVs because all they want is an EV without really considering some of the issues that an early adopter will consider. Frankly, as I mentioned in previous posts, I'd be happy for our Leaf which is currently on 9 bars to last our needs for the next 3-4 years and either sell it cheap afterwards or I might just pull it apart for fun and modification after that point including buying foreign battery packs (e..g off wrecked leafs from Japan or NZ) cos at that point in time, it's worth more to me as a novelty than any potential resale value.
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bje
EV Enthusiast
Posts: 36
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Post by bje on Mar 6, 2019 16:53:45 GMT 11
Coincidentally, Nissan sent me an invitation to provide them with feedback after my recent service. I gave it to them with both barrels and rated my likelihood of buying a Nissan as my next car as zero.
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Post by brunohill on Mar 7, 2019 1:05:25 GMT 11
I would buy the old battery pack. The remaining kWh would have to be better value than the same kWh of new lead acid batteries. I might end up with the 1st Aussie LEAF powerwall. It has been done with old laptop batteries. Check out HBPowerwall on YouTube. He lives in the next suburb over from me. It has already been done with leaf batteries also ( I know of one in NZ). I already have a hybrid solar inverter on my house that uses 48 Volt lead acid batteries, I just tick a box in the software an add some cell balancing modules, and Leaf modules 6 parallel, 7 series would replace them nicely. There are heaps of 48 volt house systems that old leaf batteries could be used on in this country. www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLNzF3EpTQk Well looks like they already make kits... ... old leaf batteries are not throw away. www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlCz40bCZZM
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Post by pharmadave on Mar 7, 2019 9:04:58 GMT 11
There are lots of interesting storage projects done by the home DIYer. I've been watching some of Jehu's content for a while.
I think the main difference is that the cells that people have gotten their hands on are from wrecked or written off Leafs which would have been bought from auction yards or privately.
I don't think it was a case of walking up to the parts and service counter at the local nissan dealership and saying 'some swapped out Leaf cells please'.
The average person won't be sold those cells by Nissan by any official channels, especially in a market like Australia.
If/when the times comes for me to change the battery pack, I'm thinking of buying a parts donor car/s from Japan and bringing it in privately with the help of someone like Ben from J-spec. Not with the intention of driving it on the roads but purely for the sake of harvesting the parts from it. The ones wiht crash damage go for pretty cheap, panel damage and battery pack still fine.
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