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Post by hieronymous on Feb 28, 2016 9:28:36 GMT 11
Please ...get your facts straight.
Nissan does NOT say "Don't leave your car with a low charge for over 14 days", it says "Don't leave your car with a ZERO or NEAR ZERO state of charge for more than 14 days". The word "low" does NOT mean zero, or anything like it. For many Leaf owners, low means LBW, which leaves more than 20% range unused. "Low" is a vague word that means different things to different people - don't use it because readers don't know what you mean.
You can't compare the use of an HV battery in a Prius with that in a Leaf. In a Prius, the range comes from the petrol tank. This includes regen - use of petrol is required to create a regen opportunity. Therefore Toyota doesn't have to try to extract maximum range from the HV battery, so the battery can be small, low-cost (NiMH), and its charge/recharge parameters can be controlled to maximise battery life.
It is nonsense to suggest that there hasn't been much research on NiMH in automobiles, and that NIMH isn't well understood by Toyota. More than 8 million hybrids have been sold, virtually all manufacturers have hybrids in their lineup (many licenced from Toyota), and the vast majority of these have NiMH batteries. Like the rest of the prius technology, the batteries have proved to be long-lasting and reliable, including in taxis in the States that have done more than 500,000 miles on the original battery. Toyota isn't the world's most successful vehicle manufacturer as a fluke - their research is solid.
Parking out in the sun on a very hot day IS BAD for your Leaf, but it is NOT because of the air temperature! It is because the asphalt surface of the car park gets MUCH hotter (20-30C hotter) than the air temperature, and you could fry an egg on it. So your nice big battery attached to the bottom of the car is sitting only 30cm above this baking hot surface, which stays hot and gets hotter because it is part of the whole car park surface.
Enjoy your Leaf!
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Post by hieronymous on Feb 28, 2016 10:53:17 GMT 11
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Post by jake on Feb 28, 2016 15:49:31 GMT 11
Please ...get your facts straight. Nissan does NOT say "Don't leave your car with a low charge for over 14 days", it says "Don't leave your car with a ZERO or NEAR ZERO state of charge for more than 14 days". The word "low" does NOT mean zero, or anything like it. For many Leaf owners, low means LBW, which leaves more than 20% range unused. "Low" is a vague word that means different things to different people - don't use it because readers don't know what you mean. You can't compare the use of an HV battery in a Prius with that in a Leaf. In a Prius, the range comes from the petrol tank. This includes regen - use of petrol is required to create a regen opportunity. Therefore Toyota doesn't have to try to extract maximum range from the HV battery, so the battery can be small, low-cost (NiMH), and its charge/recharge parameters can be controlled to maximise battery life. It is nonsense to suggest that there hasn't been much research on NiMH in automobiles, and that NIMH isn't well understood by Toyota. More than 8 million hybrids have been sold, virtually all manufacturers have hybrids in their lineup (many licenced from Toyota), and the vast majority of these have NiMH batteries. Like the rest of the prius technology, the batteries have proved to be long-lasting and reliable, including in taxis in the States that have done more than 500,000 miles on the original battery. Toyota isn't the world's most successful vehicle manufacturer as a fluke - their research is solid. Parking out in the sun on a very hot day IS BAD for your Leaf, but it is NOT because of the air temperature! It is because the asphalt surface of the car park gets MUCH hotter (20-30C hotter) than the air temperature, and you could fry an egg on it. So your nice big battery attached to the bottom of the car is sitting only 30cm above this baking hot surface, which stays hot and gets hotter because it is part of the whole car park surface. Enjoy your Leaf! Actually that's what I meant by low charge, zero or near zero charge, so sorry to create confusion. In the case of the Prius, I am only using it as an example in its management of the battery. If it used the lower 30% then the Prius would have much better economy than it does. And you reinforce my point, they do it to maximise battery life, which is what I am on about. I agree there has been much reasearch on both NiMh and LiIon. It is from reading this reasearch that I come to my conclusions and yes the good news is that the batteries in the Prius has lasted longer than they thought it would. Yes you are right, the sun heats the asphalt the asphalt heats your battery. Conclusion: Don't leave your car parked in the sun on a hot day. Actually this might not be too bad because I remember someone left a car parked in the sun and checked the battery temperature with Leaf Spy and it wasn't too bad. I read that on this forum somewhere.
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Post by jake on Feb 28, 2016 16:35:32 GMT 11
I think some of you are missing my point. We have to worry about the battery to some degree because it is a major cost of the vehicle and a huge replacement cost, therefore we should be interested in making it last as long as possible. Knowing what causes the battery to degrade helps us to alter our charging habits so that we get the most out of the battery. It can be summarised very easily. Causes of degradation. 1. Cycling (just using it, charging/discharging 2. Heat (caused by anything, could be Fast charge/discharging or environmental. 3. Leaving the battery at 100% or 0%. 3. Age (they will degrade by themselves slowly) We know the best way to store a battery that is not in use at aprox 40% (this allows for a small natural amount of discharge) So by all means just drive and enjoy the car. I do very much, but this information can guide us in our charging habits and how we look after the car. Simple things like avoiding parking in the sun on a hot day, Obviously you aren't going to damage your battery if you run it to the low battery warning, but you will if you leave it discharged for any length of time. The longer you leave it the more damage is done. With the charge timers it is easy to not leave it at 100% for very long, however if you ran it to 0% and then used the charging timer, then you are leaving your battery discharged for a length of time. Interestingly the battery research tells us that leaving the battery fully charged is more harmful than having it discharged amd any harm done to a battery by being discharged can be reversed somewhat by charging. I would also say that any degradation by leaving the battery discharged for a small time might not be significant, but all I am saying is that if we know the degradation causes, we can try to avoid them. The fact that Nissan says not to leave our cars at low charge for over 14 days points to the fact that they know leaving the battery at a low level is bad for it. It might not do much damage leaving it overnight with no charge, but shouldn't we avoid it? Remember the Prius never discharges the battery below 30%. You have to ask why? and the answer is for longevity. First, the BMS will never allow the battery to be charged to it's 100% capacity. Of course, Nissan & Tesla told us not always charge it to "100% usable capacity" (i.e., in fact less than 100% of the battery capacity) may reduce capacity loss but they never meant it will damage the battery. The researches were done with real 100% battery capacity. The self-discharging is slow and its not causing additional damages to the battery (every charge and discharge causes damages in the battery - I don't remember whether it is the cathode or anode). However, if the battery was in very low charge, the voltage of the battery will be too low to charge. The car will not allow us to drive the car to 0% of the real battery capacity but the self-discharge will continue to discharge slowly and thus allow it to stay in that state for more than 14 days is not recommended. There are reports in the Segway community (yeah, I own a Segway) that the first generation of their Li-ion battery (produced by A123) become dead (and need to be replaced) after it was discharged and remain at low charge for a period of time. The community found that the batteries are in fact still okay but refused to accept any charge and it can be revived. Prius never discharges the battery below 30% because of 2 things - it is using NiMH and they don't know enough about NiMH. With the experience of using NiMH with small appliances, people knows NiMH doesn't have memory effect but will die pretty soon with a lot of cycles. With deep discharge cycles, they will die quicker. However, there are not much experiences of NiMH used in Automobiles. There are not much research on NiMH. When you don't know much about the battery, you tend to be conservative and won't do deep discharge. In case of a Prius, it doesn't really matter to not doing deep discharge as it is only used to reduce to loss of energy on braking. It is not the case for Li-ion batteries. There are a lot of researches going on in studying how it works and ages. The battery was used in pure EV for more than 10 years. In fact, Elon Musk said they understand the battery so much that their supercharger knows how much power to put in on different state of charge without damaging it. Bear in mind that it was a common understanding on high power charging and discharging causes more damages on the battery and, in fact, Tesla even told their customers frequent supercharging may reduce their battery life when they announced supercharger, now Tesla tells their customers supercharging is not affect the battery life and they don't have to worry about using superchargers. The advice of not parking under the sun on a hot day isn't necessary as the battery has a high thermo mass and mounted under the car. The change of the temperature in the battery is slow to the air temperature around it. I avoid parking under the sun because of the potential damages to the paint, rubber, plastic, etc like other ICE cars. For the argument of the battery is the most expensive component in the car, the same applies for ICE cars. The engine & the transmission wears and tears on the second it was started and the harder you push the faster it damages. Do ICE drivers think twice before they switch gears (or doing something that causes gears switching)? Do they not drive the car due to the worries the explosions may damage the engine? I understand that your suggestions were to keep the car in good conditions as long as possible. However, I don't see we have more to worry more on the LEAF compare with owners of an ICE. We also need to avoid giving other people the false impression that EVs requires owners to be more caution to use than an ICE. The fact is that EVs are more robust than ICEs. The car won't suck in water and give up when there was a flood; don't need to change oil every a few months or a year; motors last "forever" unlike ICE start to breakdown after 7 years; etc. I have already said that the battery only charges to a real world 90%. Probably why Nissan don't have 80% option on the new models. However your battery will be in a higher state of stress the more it is charged. I don't want to create paranoia. It is fine to charge your battery to 100% and discharge to zero, but if you are aware of the degradation factors then you may be able to change your habits to maximise battery life. That's all I'm saying, nothing more. As far as supercharing is concerned , the only problem is the heat that it causes. With a Tesla, not so much of a problem because it has temperature management, but our Leafs don't. However in my own experience in the times that I have used the fast charging the battery has remained cool, so good news. Hwever there was a Utube clip I watched about a Leaf driver who undertook a long distance journey just hopping from fast charger to fast charger and driving at highway speeds. His battery was so hot that the Leaf refused to charge on the last fast charger. Interestingly enough, he was able to charge on the home charger even with the temperature of the battery reading maximum. I think we do have to woory a little more than ICE drivers. Filling up on an ICE car and driving it to empty, or leaving the full tank full isn't going to affect it in anyway. Not so with the Leaf. Again I'm not trying to promote paranoia. Just drive the car and enjoy it, but you should be mindful of what degrades a LiIon battery unless you don't care about how long the battery lasts. As with ICE drivers, as I was not long ago. YES they should care about how they drive the car if they want it to last longer. I drove my ICE car carefully for that reason. Not to wear it out prematurely. I agree you can drive the Leaf like any other car. I drive the car just the same as mt last ICE car, but I am rewarded by supreme comfort and performance. I love that the Leaf is great in flood water. It gives me great confidence when there is abig downpour. With it's traction control and electrics, it's king in extreme wet weather. Love that there are no belts or oil and very little maintenance, including brakes because of regen. In fact the only thing we have to worry about deteriorating is the battery, and deteriorate it will. Nissan have been thankfully open about that, giving us a display on the dash that documents its life. This is the point of my posts. The battery is the weakest link in the Leaf. I'm not saying be overly worried about it, but there are some simple things we can do to prolong its life. By the way NiMh batteries can exhibit the memory effect, that is why when they were used in Laptops, we were told to discharge them completely and then do a very long charge to full initially. After that we could use them normally. No such problems with a LiIon battery. Actually with LiIon they are charged that way in the factory which they call "formatting", but LiIon batteries apparently have no memory affect. I have been intersted in battery technology for a long time and have read everything I could find about their development. There are many promising designs. When the next breakthrough comes it will be game changing, and then we truly won't have to worry about our batteries at all. The trouble is with our present gen 1 Leafs is the range. It is almost good enough and I think 99% of the time it's fine, but many people have been caught short and so we need take care of our batteries and their precious limited range. Not a problem for a Tesla driver, they have the range of an ICE car. A degraded battery still gives them plenty of range. I always wanted an electric car and I have waited many years for them to be viable. I almost bought a Blade. Then when the Volt came along, I was going to buy that. At the last minute I changed my mind and bought a Leaf, and glad I did, because now I don't have to worry about an ICE engine at all, and the advantages are obvious. I love my Leaf, it is easily the best and most comfortable car I ever owned. I just wish it had a bit more range.
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Post by jacky on Feb 28, 2016 18:31:09 GMT 11
There were researches on automobile use of NiMH a long time ago by battery companies like Panasonic. However, the patent holder sued them and banned used of high capacity/power NiMH. Many of the researches on this type of battery were stopped.
Compare with Li-ion battery, it is very few researches on NiMH. Did you remember anyone using X-Ray to study the structure of the battery at the molecular level on NiMH? There was on for Li-ion batteries.
Anyone produced NiMH batteries with nano-technology to increase the energy density? The Li-ion battery improvements recently include the applications of nanotechnologies.
Do you need more? I don't understand why people can be so rude to say others opinions is nonsense. Do you think you know everything on this world and are always right? Please be polite or other will be rude to you too.
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Post by jake on Feb 28, 2016 18:48:18 GMT 11
There were researches on automobile use of NiMH a long time ago by battery companies like Panasonic. However, the patent holder sued them and banned used of high capacity/power NiMH. Many of the researches on this type of battery were stopped. Compare with Li-ion battery, it is very few researches on NiMH. Did you remember anyone using X-Ray to study the structure of the battery at the molecular level on NiMH? There was on for Li-ion batteries. Anyone produced NiMH batteries with nano-technology to increase the energy density? The Li-ion battery improvement recently include the use of nanotechnologies. Do you need more? I don't understand why people can be so rude to say others opinions is nonsense. Do you think you know everything on this world and are always right? Please be polite or other will be rude to you too. You may be right about there not being as much research on NiMh as LiIon but that may be because LiIon proved to be a superior technology and is still being developed today. We should respect each other's opinions and always be polite! I am the first to apologise if I have offended anybody. I just enjoy the debate. Seems as though you have been keeping up with battery developments too Jacky!
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Post by jacky on Feb 28, 2016 18:49:42 GMT 11
Hey, jake. You didn't offend me don't worry.
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Post by caroline on Feb 28, 2016 20:54:14 GMT 11
Just catching up on this thread... Don't think I have posted here yet but I lost my first bar a few months ago with only 6,500km on the clock. Bought the car 'new' last March 2015. I charge 3-4 times a week mostly to 80% - 100% on weekends. Have fast charged 3 times. We've had a pretty hot summer and it heats during the day at the work car park - even under the shade sails. When the car arrived at the dealership the car salesman made me wait an extra week as apparently it was scratched in transit so was being 'detailed'... I found out 6 weeks later when the touch up wax wore off what it was... Some pretty nasty key scratching under and around the drivers door handle. Whoever was storing it was opening the door regularly with a bunch of keys... That or they wore a lot of rings! I don't use keys or wear rings so know it wasn't me! Pretty disappointing. Anyway based on that carelessness I wouldn't be surprised if they'd stored the car in the sun.
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Post by Phoebe on Feb 28, 2016 21:35:10 GMT 11
That's not good, caroline! Makes me grateful I took delivery of my LEAF in November 2012. They had only been available since July, mid winter, so could not have spent months in the heat before it came to me. I have probably only had to leave it in a hot sun once since I've had it and I've never done a fast charge. I still haven't lost a bar.
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Post by Feng on Feb 28, 2016 23:52:41 GMT 11
Sorry to hear Caroline. Do you plan to do anything about the scratches? It's remarkable how much can buff off with the right equipment, just look up examples on Youtube. I bought a DA polisher and accessories a year ago and detailed both of my cars, it was worth it! Had a door scrape on the Honda which buffed right off.
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Post by jake on Feb 28, 2016 23:56:08 GMT 11
Hi Caroline, To lose a bar that early is terrible. Are you in Perth? A lot of cars in Perth are losing bars early.
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Post by caroline on Feb 28, 2016 23:57:07 GMT 11
Mght give that a go thanks Feng
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Post by caroline on Feb 29, 2016 0:03:37 GMT 11
Hi Caroline, To lose a bar that early is terrible. Are you in Perth? A lot of cars in Perth are losing bars early. I'm on the Gold Coast - and have looked after the car pretty well imo so pretty disappointed
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Post by jake on Feb 29, 2016 10:28:32 GMT 11
I wouldn't be too worried Caroline, we are all going to lose that first bar sooner or later and the Leaf has still plenty of range with 10 or 11 bars, but it does sound like the battery in your car has been mistreated.
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Post by southernvolt on Feb 29, 2016 23:48:08 GMT 11
Of course as soon as you claim something it changes Lost a bar this morning. Had a feeling the last couple of weeks actually, just a feeling as I thought I should have been getting a few more km's more left after my standard commute. One thing I'd like to comment on is that i remember a quote I read somewhere that degradation was more about age than use. The 12 volt in your petrol car always died with age and you'd have to replace it and people didn't think twice. I just got a new battery in my 5 year old diesel burner. Our batteries are like that. I'm guessing that in 5, 6, 8 years when we need a new battery for range that there'll be options. I've seen youtube videos of guys reusing dead laptop batteries by pulling them apart and salvaging cells. There's a guy who built his own tesla powerwall this way for $300. We might be able to take it somewhere after market and get the dud cells replaced or something. At least we know we are not going to need to get the engine reconditioned or the gearbox rebuilt as ours are going to go forever.
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Post by jake on Mar 1, 2016 12:06:42 GMT 11
Of course as soon as you claim something it changes Lost a bar this morning. Had a feeling the last couple of weeks actually, just a feeling as I thought I should have been getting a few more km's more left after my standard commute. One thing I'd like to comment on is that i remember a quote I read somewhere that degradation was more about age than use. The 12 volt in your petrol car always died with age and you'd have to replace it and people didn't think twice. I just got a new battery in my 5 year old diesel burner. Our batteries are like that. I'm guessing that in 5, 6, 8 years when we need a new battery for range that there'll be options. I've seen youtube videos of guys reusing dead laptop batteries by pulling them apart and salvaging cells. There's a guy who built his own tesla powerwall this way for $300. We might be able to take it somewhere after market and get the dud cells replaced or something. At least we know we are not going to need to get the engine reconditioned or the gearbox rebuilt as ours are going to go forever. We need to be a bit more scientific and use the available research on why Lithium Ion batteries degrade. Yes, age is a factor but it is not the main degradation factor. Just using your battery is going to wear it out. If you didn't use it, and stored it correctly (40% charge) it would degrade very slowly. Take Phoebe for example, she has done fewer K and doesn't charge very often, and she still has all 12 bars after 3 years. Same with the 12 volt, it is not so much about age and more about how the battery is used. By the way Lead acid batteries like to be given a good 14 hour charge now and then if you want them to last longer.
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Post by jake on Mar 1, 2016 12:09:26 GMT 11
Phoebe, exactly how many K has your car done? Your charging habits and use of the car are an interesting case study.
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Post by Phoebe on Mar 1, 2016 14:26:54 GMT 11
Phoebe, exactly how many K has your car done? Your charging habits and use of the car are an interesting case study. Exactly 6870 kms It has been charged about 75 times, always to 100%, usually when the GOM reads just over 40 and I've gone between 90 and 100 kms. I have never done a fast charge and normally it is in my garage, leaving 3 times a week for between 2 and 3 hours, and then virtually always parked in the shade. I took delivery 9.11.12, so I've had it more than 3 years and 3 months.
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Post by EVangelist on Mar 1, 2016 15:09:02 GMT 11
I reckon we'll see a spate of age-related first bar loss among the first-gen Leaf population this year. It'll be interesting to see if anyone here has not lost a bar by years-end.
And no I don't pretend this post is scientific.
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Post by jake on Mar 1, 2016 22:31:19 GMT 11
I reckon we'll see a spate of age-related first bar loss among the first-gen Leaf population this year. It'll be interesting to see if anyone here has not lost a bar by years-end. And no I don't pretend this post is scientific. Well if it's not scientific, what do you base your view on? Intuition?
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Post by jake on Mar 1, 2016 22:42:39 GMT 11
Phoebe, exactly how many K has your car done? Your charging habits and use of the car are an interesting case study. Exactly 6870 kms It has been charged about 75 times, always to 100%, usually when the GOM reads just over 40 and I've gone between 90 and 100 kms. I have never done a fast charge and normally it is in my garage, leaving 3 times a week for between 2 and 3 hours, and then virtually always parked in the shade. I took delivery 9.11.12, so I've had it more than 3 years and 3 months. Wow that's not much K in 3 years. My use is the exact opposite. Lots of K, lots of charging. I' do 4 100% charges and 3 80% charges per week plus top up charges when I have to go out at night. I'm predicting I will lose the first bar at about 20,000 (just a guess) I'm at 9,000 k now. Your car will be a good example of age against use. If you lose a bar before the end of the year, then we will know that age is a bigger factor than I think.
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Post by Phoebe on Mar 1, 2016 22:53:38 GMT 11
Exactly 6870 kms It has been charged about 75 times, always to 100%, usually when the GOM reads just over 40 and I've gone between 90 and 100 kms. I have never done a fast charge and normally it is in my garage, leaving 3 times a week for between 2 and 3 hours, and then virtually always parked in the shade. I took delivery 9.11.12, so I've had it more than 3 years and 3 months. Wow that's not much K in 3 years. My use is the exact opposite. Lots of K, lots of charging. I' do 4 100% charges and 3 80% charges per week plus top up charges when I have to go out at night. I'm predicting I will lose the first bar at about 20,000 (just a guess) I'm at 9,000 k now. Your car will be a good example of age against use. If you lose a bar before the end of the year, then we will know that age is a bigger factor than I think. Yep
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Post by EVangelist on Mar 1, 2016 23:22:52 GMT 11
Well if it's not scientific, what do you base your view on? Intuition? There's been quite a few reports here of first bar loss in the past 6 months, but not many before that. So yeah, gut feel.
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Post by jake on Mar 2, 2016 9:35:52 GMT 11
Well if it's not scientific, what do you base your view on? Intuition? There's been quite a few reports here of first bar loss in the past 6 months, but not many before that. So yeah, gut feel. Fair enough. It will be interesting to see what happens.
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Post by caskings on Mar 2, 2016 11:06:20 GMT 11
Jeez, I must be in the upper usage band then. Minimum 1 x 100% charge per day and not uncommon to have to charge a second time once a week.
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Post by iamlsd on Mar 7, 2016 11:52:42 GMT 11
Well We've just lost our 1st bar - about 23800km on the clock and will have owned the leaf 3 years in December. So maybe our car adds to the age related battery degradation case?
We generally charge during the day to use our solar about 3 to 4 hours every second day. Charge usually only gets down to 3 or 4 bars and usually charge up to about 9 or 10 bars. Only goes to 100% if we forget it's plugged in.
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Post by hieronymous on Mar 7, 2016 12:08:19 GMT 11
Well We've just lost our 1st bar - about 23800km on the clock and will have owned the leaf 3 years in December. So maybe our car adds to the age related battery degradation case? We generally charge during the day to use our solar about 3 to 4 hours every second day. Charge usually only gets down to 3 or 4 bars and usually charge up to about 9 or 10 bars. Only goes to 100% if we forget it's plugged in. Hi iamisd You certainly seem to have joined a steadily increasing group who have recently lost a bar, all with 2012 cars. If you don't want to charge past 80%, set charge start and finish times that enclose your solar charge window ( say start: 11am, finish: 4pm), and set your charge level to 80%.
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Post by jake on Mar 7, 2016 15:21:43 GMT 11
Where do you live lamlsd?
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Post by jake on Mar 7, 2016 15:29:41 GMT 11
Sorry, read your posts, you are in Adelaide. It would be interesting to collect data of when people lost their first bars, stating how long they have owned the car, location, odometer reading and charging habits. Maybe a pattern can be identified. New Thread?
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Post by jake on Mar 9, 2016 10:51:06 GMT 11
Sorry, read your posts, you are in Adelaide. It would be interesting to collect data of when people lost their first bars, stating how long they have owned the car, location, odometer reading and charging habits. Maybe a pattern can be identified. New Thread? No need for new thread. I found "vanishing bars"
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