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Post by empowerrepower on Jan 6, 2017 1:10:26 GMT 11
www.facebook.com/groups/996387660405677/?fref=nf Leaf discussion Efficient electric cars go well with efficient electric homes. So I'm curious why the cheapest Nissan Leaf available in Australia is $23,990 but in NZ you pick up a very similar car for $10k less. Australia, with a much bigger market has only 16 listed Leafs for sale on Carsales. NZ (Autotrader) has 114 listed Leafs. Any ideas why the apparent disparity in the situation?A bit of a discussion going on at this facebook page , My Efficient Electric Home, about Leafs. Some of the members here might find it a useful page for sharing info/doing research on energy efficiency etc.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Jan 6, 2017 7:39:24 GMT 11
I don't use these social!! Media sites.
I have little time for them.
The reason Au has very few EV's is the policies they use.
It's all too obvious. Knowledge limited, want revenue from burning fossil fuels & the whole green thing fits where it touches.
Cash is the biggest reason.
A simple one is to reason why the Volt was such a phenomenal price new.
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Post by pharmadave on Jan 6, 2017 11:51:52 GMT 11
www.facebook.com/groups/996387660405677/?fref=nf Leaf discussion Efficient electric cars go well with efficient electric homes. So I'm curious why the cheapest Nissan Leaf available in Australia is $23,990 but in NZ you pick up a very similar car for $10k less. Australia, with a much bigger market has only 16 listed Leafs for sale on Carsales. NZ (Autotrader) has 114 listed Leafs. Any ideas why the apparent disparity in the situation?A bit of a discussion going on at this facebook page , My Efficient Electric Home, about Leafs. Some of the members here might find it a useful page for sharing info/doing research on energy efficiency etc. It seems that many Leafs in NZ are privately imported vehicles from U.K. and not Nissan imports. Apparently Nissan NZ did import some of the first batch but then stopped once the private 'grey' imports flooded the market. Vehicles depreciates very quickly in NZ compared to Australia. It's a double edged sword because it makes used cars very cheap in NZ but also people tend not to buy new cars due to fear of depreciation or hold onto them for longer. |
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Post by stewartm on Jan 6, 2017 13:58:23 GMT 11
Just wish the grey market would work here, I would have a current 30kw LEAF from the UK, or a 33kw Renault Zoe.
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Post by hieronymous on Jan 6, 2017 15:55:12 GMT 11
www.facebook.com/groups/996387660405677/?fref=nf Leaf discussion Efficient electric cars go well with efficient electric homes. So I'm curious why the cheapest Nissan Leaf available in Australia is $23,990 but in NZ you pick up a very similar car for $10k less. Australia, with a much bigger market has only 16 listed Leafs for sale on Carsales. NZ (Autotrader) has 114 listed Leafs. Any ideas why the apparent disparity in the situation?A bit of a discussion going on at this facebook page , My Efficient Electric Home, about Leafs. Some of the members here might find it a useful page for sharing info/doing research on energy efficiency etc. It seems that many Leafs in NZ are privately imported vehicles from U.K. and not Nissan imports. Apparently Nissan NZ did import some of the first batch but then stopped once the private 'grey' imports flooded the market. Vehicles depreciates very quickly in NZ compared to Australia. It's a double edged sword because it makes used cars very cheap in NZ but also people tend not to buy new cars due to fear of depreciation or hold onto them for longer. Not exactly. The first Leafs in NZ were UK models sold new by Nissan. At $70K few were sold. The next batch of Leafs were from the Aussie stockpile, and were sold new in 2014-15 (as in AU) for $40K. The Kiwi allocation ran out about Dec 2015. In 2015 dealers also started importing large numbers of used Japanese market Leafs, which because of Japanese Government subsidies (when new) are very competitively priced, and these continue to sell in quite high volume, 100 a month or so lately. Most of the Leafs in NZ are in this category. In 2016 dealers started importing near-new UK Leafs, some with only delivery kms on the clock; the higher spec ones can have 6.6kW chargers and 30kW batteries. These are selling close to $40K, but so far there are not many in the country. Additionally, some dealers are in the UK sourcing specific examples on order, which can include new Leafs (a few). UK used Leafs have the same subsidy pricing advantage as Japanese Leafs landed here. Nissan chose not to pursue selling new Leafs here because of the lack of Government subsidies, and the low cost of imports. Note there has never been an NZ market Leaf. Unlike in AU, Nissan has not publicly supported the likelihood of new Leafs being available in future. Used cars are cheap in NZ because the bulk of them are sourced cheaply from Japan, not because of NZ depreciation - they are cheap to buy in the first place. Depreciation rates for used imports are similar to rates in AU, but it is also a very competitive market, while new vehicle pricing is high due to a small market, greater freight costs, and a smaller market share. So there is little incentive to buy new, when you can buy near-new at much lower cost, and new-car depreciation is higher than in AU for these reasons. Australia has many restrictions that favour vehicle manufacturers and importers to the detriment of Aussie buyers, so Kiwi buyers have a much better choice and pricing in comparison. The primary difference is that parallel importing is permitted. |
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Post by pharmadave on Jan 6, 2017 21:58:56 GMT 11
hieronymousWhat are your thoughts on the proposed relaxation of importation rules in 2018 will change what cars retail for in Australia?
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Post by 4wardthinking on Jan 7, 2017 9:52:18 GMT 11
Just wish the grey market would work here, I would have a current 30kw LEAF from the UK, or a 33kw Renault Zoe. Makes quite a number of us with the Feral Gov foot on our necks. One day Au will come into the 21st century. It's quite abysmal really. But... we keep getting propaganda piped into our homes shouting about how enviro friendly we are, and ripping apart other countries saying how bad they are. China always gets the brunt of it, but their policies are leaps ahead of us. Sadly the early evening 'propaganda' programs are just entertainment, and have little factual content.... Still, they appeal to the un-enlightened. |
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Post by 4wardthinking on Jan 7, 2017 10:11:57 GMT 11
It seems that many Leafs in NZ are privately imported vehicles from U.K. and not Nissan imports. Apparently Nissan NZ did import some of the first batch but then stopped once the private 'grey' imports flooded the market. Vehicles depreciates very quickly in NZ compared to Australia. It's a double edged sword because it makes used cars very cheap in NZ but also people tend not to buy new cars due to fear of depreciation or hold onto them for longer. Not exactly. The first Leafs in NZ were UK models sold new by Nissan. At $70K few were sold. The next batch of Leafs were from the Aussie stockpile, and were sold new in 2014-15 (as in AU) for $40K. The Kiwi allocation ran out about Dec 2015. In 2015 dealers also started importing large numbers of used Japanese market Leafs, which because of Japanese Government subsidies (when new) are very competitively priced, and these continue to sell in quite high volume, 100 a month or so lately. Most of the Leafs in NZ are in this category. In 2016 dealers started importing near-new UK Leafs, some with only delivery kms on the clock; the higher spec ones can have 6.6kW chargers and 30kW batteries. These are selling close to $40K, but so far there are not many in the country. Additionally, some dealers are in the UK sourcing specific examples on order, which can include new Leafs (a few). UK used Leafs have the same subsidy pricing advantage as Japanese Leafs landed here. Nissan chose not to pursue selling new Leafs here because of the lack of Government subsidies, and the low cost of imports. Note there has never been an NZ market Leaf. Unlike in AU, Nissan has not publicly supported the likelihood of new Leafs being available in future. Used cars are cheap in NZ because the bulk of them are sourced cheaply from Japan, not because of NZ depreciation - they are cheap to buy in the first place. Depreciation rates for used imports are similar to rates in AU, but it is also a very competitive market, while new vehicle pricing is high due to a small market, greater freight costs, and a smaller market share. So there is little incentive to buy new, when you can buy near-new at much lower cost, and new-car depreciation is higher than in AU for these reasons. Australia has many restrictions that favour vehicle manufacturers and importers to the detriment of Aussie buyers, so Kiwi buyers have a much better choice and pricing in comparison. The primary difference is that parallel importing is permitted. [ The word subsidy is the problem. I heard the Au Feral Gov made a plan to off-set the selling price of EV's, as the what's in it for me required the money to "re-appropriate", and anything driven that didn't return the 'revenue' had to be priced with the life-span loss added to it. Look at the Volt new on-road price. $74k... really, a tad expensive shall we say(incentive?). They were to hit our shores at close to $20k, so where did the cash go... and similar for the LEAF at a guess. Each car on the road gives an average return in TAX IS $4500. So guess what the Feral Gov suggested!! The price to all was?. Who really!!! would pay the suggested/forced price in reality. Look at the Tesla price. Rest of the eco world is less than $100k, here, a staggering $260k. If a manufacturer can't sell them because the price is askew!!, then they don't any more... and then the "less than 12month, 500km/more than 12month trap falls into place. So, we buy the "protected" Holden & Cart(20th century Trabant). Little choice but to burn fossil fuels in vast quantities, and pay the penalty... with only 3% actual production cost, over 90% revenue... Use more... you're naughty..... pay more... And so the the cycle continues. The only closer to do way for EV's is cheap & nasty versions. And we don't have to look far. Toyota has spent nearly 17 years with environmentally less burdening Hybrids, establishing a weak, but salient market, with very little assistance, just gentle 'arm twisting'. The Feral Gov would look incredibly silly if they went to the big pow-wows chatting about global effects if they said they taxed the feasibility out of eco vehicles, so their dumb method is to "create incentives", sadly the phrase is mis-appropriated. They could push the price of petrol high, but that would loose votes, and spoil their nice cost retirement plans. |
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Post by hieronymous on Jan 7, 2017 12:29:06 GMT 11
hieronymous What are your thoughts on the proposed relaxation of importation rules in 2018 will change what cars retail for in Australia? Hi pharmadave From this side of the ditch, my understanding of the importation rules change is that it benefits new car buyers, that legal restrictions will be removed to allow drivers to buy a new car once every two years, providing it is no more than 12 months old and has no more than 500km on the odometer. Such imports here are only a small fraction of total imports; most used Leafs wouldn't fit that description. Those that do are at the high-priced end of the Leaf market, probably A$40K or so. Note that this is for used EV imports whose original cost was subsidised by the local Government - that benefit gets passed on to subsequent buyers. A new UK Leaf bought for export, doesn't attract that subsidy, as far as I know, and there are local tax implications as well, so an imported new UK Leaf is about NZ$56K landed. Non-subsidised (non EV) imports would, I expect, cost close to the price of equivalent vehicles sold new in AU by franchise holders. New car buyers are a small part of the market, so I don't expect your still-very-restrictive regulation changes to impact much or quickly. I wouldn't expect any drop in new vehicle prices, and only a slow trickle-down impact on used availability. And of course, their appears little or no political appetite to promote EVs, no doubt with plenty of fossil fuels industry lobbying against it, given AU's dependence on that industry to supply power generation needs. Over here we are fortunate to have a very high level of "green" power. We also have a Crown Minister of Transport, now quite high in the Cabinet, who has been notable for "talking the talk", but who has now bought himself an Outlander PHEV and his wife an Audi E-tron. Very different politics.... |
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Post by EVangelist on Jan 8, 2017 18:18:02 GMT 11
Look at the Tesla price. Rest of the eco world is less than $100k, here, a staggering $260k. I'm sorry, but that's simply wrong. Here's a worked example: In the USA, the Tesla Model S P100D with no additional options costs USD 134,500 (AUD 186,800 @ 0.72). The US price ignores US delivery fees and local taxes (which cannot be included in the list price under US law, unlike here where it is mandatory to show a 'drive away' price) but excludes any local State or Federal tax incentives ($7500 Federal credit, some States have additional but smaller incentives). This same car here has a base price (ex GST) of AUD 184,910 (See that? It's basically a straight USD-AUD conversion). Add in GST ($18,500) LCT ($38,362) and NSW stamp duty ($11,188) you get the drive-away price in NSW of AUD 252,950. So the (AUD) $250k Tesla here costs (USD) $135k over there, and maybe as low as USD 125k (AUD 174k) if you qualified for all available incentives. So not "less than $100k". It is clear that Tesla is not profiteering. They take the US price, convert it to AUD using a fair exchange rate, and add in the taxes that apply to every vehicle sold in Australia. If they include shipping and homologation costs in their price calculation it is well hidden or they are doing us a massive favour. They use the same approach in every country they sell in. The cheapest Model S60 costs USD 66,000 (AUD 91,500 @ 0.72). Here, it has a base price AUD 91,600 (ex GST), AUD 100,800 (inc GST) and drive-away price of AUD 113,000 (including LCT and SD). So yes we can whinge about LCT and SD making cars (more) expensive here, but in NZ the GST is 15% not 10% and I don't know what other taxes (if any) they have on their cars. |
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Post by 4wardthinking on Jan 12, 2017 7:03:27 GMT 11
Have a look on car sales.
The car is $260k.
Yes, my friend has one, I have driven it, and it wasn't $260k.
Not once have I said TESLA are profiteering by the way. However they do appear to be pricey here.
Australia, the land of the great white lie is the profiteering entity. This goes for others. A friend of mine bought s Vilt, from the floor... a staggering $74k.
Go and look at your browser again. Prices are what one pays, and theoretical prices differ in the land of the great white lie(AU).
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Post by EVangelist on Jan 12, 2017 12:35:03 GMT 11
Have a look on car sales. The car is $260k. Go and look at your browser again. Prices are what one pays, and theoretical prices differ in the land of the great white lie(AU). Lest the Leaf Forum becomes a flame-fest... I find that response odd. The prices I quoted are from the Tesla Australia website (prices as at late last year - it's possible they have changed slightly in the new year due to exchange rate variation). Those prices are what they are. Tesla does not have dealers - they sell direct through their own stores - so if Tesla is selling new cars direct on Carsales, those cars may be inventory cars that have options above the default for that model and that is why they cost more. Anyway, I'm not disputing that a Tesla can cost AUD $260k - I made it clear that the prices I quoted were for the relevant model in its base form with no additional options. If one adds every conceivable option to a Model S P100D for example you can easily get the price up to AUD $300k. What I was disputing was your claim that an AUD $260k Tesla here costs under $100k in other parts of the world. That is absolutely and utterly false. |
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Post by stewartm on Jan 12, 2017 15:10:08 GMT 11
Second hand with low KM a few around $120,000. Still too much for me.. Need Lotto  |
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Post by 4wardthinking on Jan 12, 2017 18:08:06 GMT 11
Have a look on car sales. The car is $260k. Go and look at your browser again. Prices are what one pays, and theoretical prices differ in the land of the great white lie(AU). Lest the Leaf Forum becomes a flame-fest... I find that response odd. The prices I quoted are from the Tesla Australia website (prices as at late last year - it's possible they have changed slightly in the new year due to exchange rate variation). Those prices are what they are. Tesla does not have dealers - they sell direct through their own stores - so if Tesla is selling new cars direct on Carsales, those cars may be inventory cars that have options above the default for that model and that is why they cost more. Anyway, I'm not disputing that a Tesla can cost AUD $260k - I made it clear that the prices I quoted were for the relevant model in its base form with no additional options. If one adds every conceivable option to a Model S P100D for example you can easily get the price up to AUD $300k. What I was disputing was your claim that an AUD $260k Tesla here costs under $100k in other parts of the world. That is absolutely and utterly false. [ Well, Huntsville, Alabama, my friend has, I have seen the invoice, and had a spin around a track with it. Guess I was dreaming then. Of course there's always a cheaper, less silubrious option. |
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Post by 4wardthinking on Jan 12, 2017 18:22:16 GMT 11
Lest the Leaf Forum becomes a flame-fest... I find that response odd. The prices I quoted are from the Tesla Australia website (prices as at late last year - it's possible they have changed slightly in the new year due to exchange rate variation). Those prices are what they are. Tesla does not have dealers - they sell direct through their own stores - so if Tesla is selling new cars direct on Carsales, those cars may be inventory cars that have options above the default for that model and that is why they cost more. Anyway, I'm not disputing that a Tesla can cost AUD $260k - I made it clear that the prices I quoted were for the relevant model in its base form with no additional options. If one adds every conceivable option to a Model S P100D for example you can easily get the price up to AUD $300k. What I was disputing was your claim that an AUD $260k Tesla here costs under $100k in other parts of the world. That is absolutely and utterly false. [ Well, Huntsville, Alabama, my friend has, I have seen the invoice, and had a spin around a track with it. Guess I was dreaming then. Of course there's always a cheaper, less silubrious option. Oh, and it does fly. It would be nice if the gouge was less here. How on earth are the EV's going to make a difference to the environment if they are out of the reach of mr average. Whilever people pay over the top prices for them, they will stay at that price. |
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Post by 4wardthinking on Jan 12, 2017 18:24:08 GMT 11
But maybe if the low-tech el-cheapo TESLA does sell at your said price, I'll take notice of localised theoretical pricing.
Maybe then the world could change.
Of course I'd consider one, but not the toy version then.
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