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Post by riddick on Oct 10, 2014 14:55:23 GMT 11
The Prius may have made sense when it was designed many years back. Hybrid was a step up in fuel efficiency, just like EFI was when that came along. However, the new generation EVs are a step up from the hybrid just the same way. Toyota sticking with hybrids means that they are staying with old technology.
Most of the servicing cost for the LEAF is there to protect the dealers. They are not REAL costs. I doubt that mine will see a dealer/mechanic once the warranty is over. I never rotate tires anyway and won't go to a mechanic/dealer to change an internal dust filter. The brake fluid should be tested for specific gravity anyway and not just dumped regardless. Most of us also have the battery monitoring software as well.
Why do you say that Nissan won't fix problems if it comes along? They have given brand new batteries to some people already.
Yes, the range is kind of an issue, but only in this country or NZ. When Tesla comes out with the Model 3, Nissan will have an answer with heaps more battery.
By the way, I am a Toyota owner as well and like my Hilux, it is supposed to be the most reliable car there is (and for me it is the cheapest to run car there is as well, cheaper then the LEAF). But it is the past...
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Post by hieronymous on Oct 10, 2014 20:38:10 GMT 11
Hi iwander. Leaf batteries (and similar) are subject to a small amount of calendar aging, which is additional to that from heat, quick charging, sitting with a very high, or very low charge for long periods, and frequent charging associated with big annual km's. New from the factory, 2011-2012 Leafs had a battery capacity of 66AHr - the decreasing of this value reflects the ageing (and performance/range) of the battery. I bought my Leaf new last July with 53km on the clock, but it was manufactured in May 2012. My battery had close to 64 AHr at that time. The android app Leaf Spy shows a related measure, State of Health (SoH), which is the current AHr reading compared with new, as a percentage. My SoH then was 96%. This week my Leaf has reached 700km, the AHr reading is down to 62.7, and the SoH has just dipped to 95%. I charge to 80% about 3 times a month when I'm down to 3 bars (about 35%). The car is mostly in its garage, at about 15-18 degrees C; I use it around town at city speeds in Eco mode. So it is very lightly treated and looked after, but some decline in performance has to be expected. But this may not be noticeable for some time as your economy will vary with every trip. I get about 7km/KWh, which equates to somewhere from 150-160km from a full charge - I haven't seen any trend downwards yet. Hi again hieronymous That's all really interesting, thanks for all that. And great question, iwander, as I was wondering the same thing myself. I bought my Leaf late July 2014, with a manufacture date of June 2012, with about 20 kilometres on the clock. We've been driving it at about a rate of about 1,500 km a month; 2-3 days per week charging to 100%, otherwise to 80%. About a month after purchasing the Leaf, I received my OBDII dongle, and I've been using LeafStat on the iPhone. My first LeafStat reading was about 37 days after Leaf purchase, and my most recent was last week on 4 October, 65 days from purchase. (I take a screen shot on those days that I've charged to 100%, and I remember to do it). So over this time frame my SOH has increased from 91.66% to 96.06% (AHr 60.73 to 63.65). (I haven't used Leaf Spy, but from LeafStat v 1.2 - which is the version I'm using - from version 1.2, "... Renamed displayed fields to match terms used on MyNissanLeaf and LEAFSpy".) So I'm wondering if the Leaf battery, after spending 25 months with little use, perhaps its health can improve as cells rebalance, etc? I'll attach a graph of the measurements. I'll also attach a screen shot of LeafStat. (Note that all the SOH measurements used in the graph were recorded on the morning after the car had charged overnight to 100%, and just after unplugging the car from the charger, and before any driving had been done.) Having read that this could change due to temperature, I've tried plotting the SOH against the recorded average battery temperature, and also against 3am ambient temperature, but such plots show little or no correlation. So I was wondering if anyone else has seen this apparent 'improvement' to battery health for a car that had spent time in storage before use? Hi quatenary By way of an update, my AHr kept on dropping under the regime I was using (above), down to 62.56, so I have just changed from charging when needed to regular and frequent charging; I have come to this after plenty of reading on the MyNissanLeaf forum. My kms are still light, so my new regime is 1x100% charge/week + 2x80% charges/week, evenly spaced. After the first 100% charge the AHr went back up to 62.71, and after the 2nd (today) up further to 62.88. My reasons for doing this also included battery balancing, and the reading has dropped from around a consistent 35mV, bottoming out around 22mV. Whether or not long storage has anything to do with this isn't clear. However, my reading and these results confirm for me that regular and frequent charging including a minority of 100% charging weekly is a pattern I should continue with. Edit: Latest AHr 63.01 SoH 96
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Post by quaternary on Oct 13, 2014 19:42:44 GMT 11
Hi hieronymous,
Thanks for the updates! That's all really interesting.
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iwander
EV Tyre Kicker
Posts: 6
LEAF OWNER?: No
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Post by iwander on Oct 14, 2014 22:20:21 GMT 11
Hi quatemary. Thanks for your reply. That is good information.
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Post by rusdy on Aug 18, 2015 19:11:30 GMT 11
Hi hieronymous, thanks to your signature (putting SoH), I did further digging into this and looks like, in average, Leaf batteries drop 3-4% in a year. I'm trying to find statistics into this, I wonder whether you have one already? Like this one: Capacity Loss. My 2012 Leaf SoH is 89% and done 15,000kms. Not much different than yours surprisingly, as mine must have gone through hot summer.
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Post by hieronymous on Aug 18, 2015 20:09:11 GMT 11
Hi hieronymous, thanks to your signature (putting SoH), I did further digging into this and looks like, in average, Leaf batteries drop 3-4% in a year. I'm trying to find statistics into this, I wonder whether you have one already? Like this one: Capacity Loss. My 2012 Leaf SoH is 89% and done 15,000kms. Not much different than yours surprisingly, as mine must have gone through hot summer. Hi rusdy The site you refer to is the best I know of for real-world data, and it clearly shows that while Leaf battery loss is hugely variable, excessive heat such as in Arizona is the number one issue for owners in such places, at least for Gen 1 owners like us. Apart from that, however, my take is that an average for those mostly USA owners might well be nearer 7-8% per year. Our 2012 built Oz Leafs are starting to produce some bar loss, mainly one bar, after 3 years, so even if the low loss during pre-sale storage distorts the picture somewhat, your 3-4% suggestion is close; I would think 4-5%. My Leaf is down from 'new" to 93% from 96% (13 months), but in the last 6 months from 94% to 93% only. This lower rate is entirely due to my local driving never exceeding 25km return, so I now never charge beyond 40% SoC. Over the winter my AHr has only fallen once (by 0.04) in 15 weeks. 1 SOH = about 0.7 AHr.
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zro0il
EV Tyre Kicker
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Post by zro0il on Aug 26, 2015 7:32:52 GMT 11
Hi All, We've been pondering a leaf, (and other EV's ) though as we all know options are limited here. Anyway we've not been able to get consistent information out of any dealer. ( those that are actually interested) re warranty of the component parts. We've noticed you all refer to 5 years LI-ON battery warranty. If you go to this link www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/images/f/fe/2012-leaf-warranty-booklet.pdfYou'll find the Leaf warranty book issued in all other which countries is the same document / warranty across all countries, and years since introduction, however we've been unable to find the equivalent document for Australia nor had success in requesting one which is strange given the introduction of the consumer protection Act 2011. You will see on page 2 a summary of the various components of warranty. In particular the Li-ON Battery pack warranty is 96 months or 100,000 miles (160,000km) The 2014 warranty book (US) tells the same story. Has anyone seen / have an Australian version of this book? We would have expected it to be consistent with every other jurisdiction in the world. Also, the following link is interesting re the statement / commitment from Nissan (2012) re battery capacity after 60,000 miles (100,000km approx). Does anyone have correspondence from Nissan Australia / clarity on the statement by Andy Palmer of Nissan re commitment outside the U.S. i.e. for Australia? If so that would be most appreciated. www.autoblog.com/2012/12/27/nissan-leaf-battery-warranty-upgraded-first-capacity-loss/PS, other than what's at dealers apparently there is only Red and Black new cars left. Thanks for your time. Comments appreciated. Regards G&J
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Post by Feng on Aug 26, 2015 13:50:04 GMT 11
Hello, Welcome to the forum. The most recent warranty we have for the battery is five years, 100,000km and if it drops below nine capacity bars they will repair it and bring it above nine bars. No idea how much capacity they will restore when they repair it, I don't think anyone here has had it done before. Losing three capacity bars is 27.5% capacity. Once again we've lucked out compared to overseas, I believe they get a new battery if it drops below nine bars. Here's a letter we got about it last year: ozleaf.proboards.com/thread/343/free-extended-battery-coverage
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Post by Cachexian (Gordon) on Aug 28, 2015 14:37:37 GMT 11
I assume that it's normal since you all call it the "guess-o-meter" but is it normal that the range drops much more rapidly than the distance driven? I can understand this happening when driving with a heavy right foot but should it happen in eco mode with the climate control off? Or does it drop faster from a full battery because there is no regen at 100%
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Post by Feng on Aug 28, 2015 14:42:38 GMT 11
Hills are a factor. If you're going uphills it'll drop much faster than if you're coasting downhills. I usually just use the tripmeter instead. I budget 100km for a 80% charge and 120km for a 100% charge. If I'm gentle I can squeeze a few more kms out of each. You might also want to check your tire pressure, that might make a small difference too.
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Post by Cachexian (Gordon) on Aug 28, 2015 14:43:38 GMT 11
I just took delivery of my new (black) leaf about two weeks ago. I did see a brochure insert about the extended battery warranty in the dealership where I test-drove the leaf but didn't receive anything like that letter with my leaf (which was delivered to Sydney from a dealership in ACT).
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Post by Cachexian (Gordon) on Aug 28, 2015 14:44:52 GMT 11
Thanks Feng. On another note, can I trust the distance estimator on Carwings?
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Post by Phoebe on Aug 28, 2015 14:45:28 GMT 11
The wind is another factor. It can make quite a difference both with you and against you.
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Post by Cachexian (Gordon) on Aug 28, 2015 14:46:02 GMT 11
Perhaps I should erect a sail? :-)
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Post by Phoebe on Aug 28, 2015 14:47:37 GMT 11
Only when the wind is behind you
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Post by Cachexian (Gordon) on Aug 28, 2015 14:48:19 GMT 11
When I drove out the garage this morning with 100% charge the GOM said 164km. On arrival in Manly after 23km, it said 110km. Both Haberfield and Manly are close to sea level with some ups and downs in between. I did get some nice regen going down the hill into Manly. By the way the battery meter was still at 11 bars.
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Post by markrmarkr on Aug 29, 2015 10:16:53 GMT 11
When in eco mode the estimate is a bit optomistic, but when in drive its fairly good.
Its based on your recent driving.
One bar is about 12-14km for me, but less on the freeway.
I'd guess you did some 80kmph or greater getting to Manly.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using proboards
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Post by Cachexian (Gordon) on Aug 29, 2015 10:48:35 GMT 11
Yes. 70kph, 60kph 70kph 80kph then 60. All mostly at speed limit as it was early.
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Post by Feng on Aug 29, 2015 11:34:25 GMT 11
I think regen only returns about 70% of your energy back so if it's hilly terrain it'll definitely impact your range.
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Post by Phoebe on Aug 29, 2015 12:40:10 GMT 11
I don't know. When I came back downhill from the Cameron Park EV Show, I seemed to gain as least as much range as I lost going up hill getting there!
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Post by Cachexian (Gordon) on Aug 31, 2015 6:51:42 GMT 11
Well. Here's the report. I charged to full and set off for Blaxland. 57.5k. I took Markr and Feng's advice and watched the battery bars rather than the range. Sure enough it seemed to drop about one bar every 10-14k going out and every 10-12 coming back. On arrival at Blaxland I had 5 bars remaining. There was 58km range showing on GOM so theoretically I should have made it home. I charged up to 8 bars whilst I was there. I used 5 bars of juice coming back home.
I suspect that I can do that as a round trip without the interim charge. I would certainly make it as far as nth Strathfield I'd say...
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Post by rusdy on Nov 3, 2015 19:16:26 GMT 11
Hi all, I've found this write up is really good for Leaf battery system: batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/what_causes_lithium_ion_to_dieIn summary: - Regarding battery degradation due to heat: "Voltage above 4.10V/cell at high heat causes this, a demise that can be more harmful than cycling" [*1]
- Regarding battery test by Nissan: "This would emulate driving an EV through the heat of a biblical hell, leaving rubber marks for aggressive driving, and still come out with a battery boasting 90 percent capacity." [*2]
Notes: [*1] I wonder whether this is probably why Nissan locked the fully charged value at 90% (snooping in using my LeafSpy), which leaves the max cell voltage at 4.09-ish volt. [*2] Rightio, this will be my driving style from now on. 60kW at ALL times!
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Post by jake on Nov 3, 2015 20:25:09 GMT 11
Hi all, I've found this write up is really good for Leaf battery system: batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/what_causes_lithium_ion_to_dieIn summary: - Regarding battery degradation due to heat: "Voltage above 4.10V/cell at high heat causes this, a demise that can be more harmful than cycling" [*1]
- Regarding battery test by Nissan: "This would emulate driving an EV through the heat of a biblical hell, leaving rubber marks for aggressive driving, and still come out with a battery boasting 90 percent capacity." [*2]
Notes: [*1] I wonder whether this is probably why Nissan locked the fully charged value at 90% (snooping in using my LeafSpy), which leaves the max cell voltage at 4.09-ish volt. [*2] Rightio, this will be my driving style from now on. 60kW at ALL times! Looking good for driving my Leaf around Melbourne. Nice moderate climate. Very interesting article.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Aug 5, 2016 22:24:28 GMT 11
You keep on saying that Prius's are complicated, but the HSD (Hybrid Synergy Drive) is brilliantly simple - Toyota doesn't even recommend changing the fluid until 100,000 miles. There are no belts - everything is electric. Servicing is once a year, and costs less than the Leaf servicing. The only complicated part of a Prius is its software. My Prius C to buy new, plus depreciation, insurance, servicing and running costs, is costing me less than my Leaf. All the Prius models are way cheaper than the Leaf to purchase - I don't thnk Toyota is losing any money on them. My mechanic loves his 12 year old Gen1 Prius which has needed nothing but a new battery - $3500. Wouldn't we love that for our Leafs! Leafs are well made cars, but they will never become mainstream until/unless their batteries cost a fraction of what they do now, and provide at least 3 times the range. Gen 2 Leafs have lots of changes and fine-tuning but it's tinkering around the edges - there is no major model change in sight. Nissan is struggling to sell in sufficient numbers; significant sales are only occurring where governments provide financial incentives (i.e. NOT here). I enjoy my Leaf because it's a daily challenge to manage, but if I could have afforded but one vehicle, my Prius would be the choice, because apart from its mainstream capability, I am very confident of its reliability, and of Toyota to fix it if it does go wrong. I can't say the same about Nissan Internal combustion engines are complex. I don't see why the Prius is simple. Not required to change fluid frequently and no belts to change only means Toyota was working very hard to minimise the maintenance of the car. It doesn't mean the car is simple. Compare with the software running on an iPad, the software on the Prius is simple. I am a programmer. I have been writing complex and sophisticated software for decades. Toyota recommends servicing a Prius every 6 months or 10,000 km. For the first three years (i.e., first 6 services), the service charge is capped at $130 per service. You can say the service of a Prius is cheaper than a LEAF but that doesn't indicate the complicity of the car. www.clintonstoyota.com.au/new-vehicles/prius-v/The Prius is cheaper to buy? Prius C I-tech is $30,800 drive away and it is smaller than the LEAF. I think it is fairer to compare the Prius I-tech with the LEAF. A Prius i-tech is $50,500 drive away while the LEAF is just $40,000. A Prius is more expensive. You should also consider the savings on the fuel. Replacing the battery of a Gen I Prius costed your friend $3,500?! It is expensive! Do you know the the capacity of the Prius battery is much lower than the LEAF? Prius 2nd Gen has only 1.3kWh battery capacity whereas LEAF has 24kWh. Prius batteries are just NiMH not Li-ion. Nissan is selling a replacement LEAF battery to US owner for US$5,500 only. My gen 1 Prius cost me $78 to recon the battery(HV), and is still at 4.0l/100km. The Red one NHW20 iTech, (currently for sale) is returning 3.8l/100km. Recon the HV cost three modules(while I had it apart, I have a stack of modules, so I carefully matched them to the rest of the pack. It's usually one module that drags the rest down into oblivion rather rapidly if not addressed quickly. There are many myths flying around, but the biggest enemy is lack of understanding from mechanics more attuned to wielding an oily spanner, and fear of something they can't explain.... Toyota is a culprit there also. Sadly this is also a sign of Australuan Govermentaly policy to issue kids with mechanics certificates relating to the prehistoric vehicles we are inundated with, and remarkably continue to lap up for some obscure reason. I've taken time to enlighten a friend on the finer art of 21st century technology, and direct Prous owners to him. There are a number of little tweeks he is now aware of. He is rapidly building up a customer base with the owners. They actually are a very reliable form of transport that require very little maintenance, oil included!. The "directive" here us oil change etc at 9000kms... It's such a criminal wate of resource AND owners money. My little gen 1 has now cracked the 230,000km mark, and shows no sign of stopping... If it did, the chances of it being anything but the HV pack are very remote given actual "real" problems across the globe, and then it generally can be fixed at far less than $1k. Sadly our little goldfish bowl can be a problem to its inhabitants. The adverse propaganda readily absorbed by the masses convinces them that unless it's petrol only, it can't be reliable. Oops. Point one here is a Prius will get you home 90% of the time with a propulsion issue, and two, if an oil burner has one issue in the 7000 thrashing parts it needs to run, it leaves one at the roadside. I still swear by our 16 year old. Luckily I am blessed with the greatest mode of personal transport to accompany the Prius(got 2, one has to go etc!), an EV, a LEAF to be exact. Personal recommendations are own one of each. The Prius can be called on to go 1684kms in 24 hours at the drop of the preverbial hat, but the sheer pleasure of the LEAF is local area perfect. No intention to stand on toes here, but given my experience, I thought I'd drop in my $0.02 worth.
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Post by hieronymous on Aug 6, 2016 12:59:32 GMT 11
Yup, Prius + Leaf = a marriage made in heaven, between them always providing the best tool for the job ... :-)
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2016 7:28:50 GMT 11
I got rid of my 2006 Prius cos it had clicking when turning to max right / left of steering wheel. Also the 3rd party reverse sensors gave. False alarms.
Traded in for a golf tdi 2.0 Which also had its share of issues. Including a buzzing sunglass holder Electric Windows wouldn't go down at times
Traded in golf for blumotion golf Wanted to check out stop/start tech and reduce engine size to 1.6l Electric Windows wouldn't go down at times
Traded golf for volt. Intending to support the local car industry. Volt has RCD issue as its main fault.
In the meantime also got Imiev , an impulse buy.
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