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Post by empowerrepower on Oct 18, 2015 0:07:27 GMT 11
This article by Tony Seba has some often overlooked information on where hydrogen often comes from, despite the green hype. Can hydrogen...compete with EVsThe SMH also had an article on hydrogen vehicles in the Drive section today. |
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Post by jacky on Oct 18, 2015 7:47:43 GMT 11
Great article.
I believe the crisis we have is actually a kind of energy crisis. We are wasting too much energy. Instead of reduce the waste, we explore more energy sources and increase energy consumptions (and the wastage). It is the cause of making the global warming accelerates and out of control.
Hydrogen fuel cell transportation will just make us spend more energy on transportation and eventually force us to use up all our energy sources and claim renewable energy can't satisfy our demands.
The most scary thing is that governments believe it is a green transportation option and provide incentives for people to switch to fuel cell vehicles like what they did with diesel. By the time they found this is a terrible mistake (like what they found with diesel now), its already too late.
Human race needs much more intelligent politicians.
For a small potato like me, all I can do is buying EV. If I have to buy an ICE for whatever reason, don't buy it from Toyota (or any companies that support Hydrogen fuel cell) but buy it from car companies that support EV (such as Nissan).
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Post by markrmarkr on Oct 18, 2015 12:02:45 GMT 11
Spot on Jacky.
Sent from my SM-N9005 using proboards
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Post by empowerrepower on Oct 18, 2015 18:58:12 GMT 11
Hydrogen fuel cell transportation will just make us spend more energy on transportation and eventually force us to use up all our energy sources and claim renewable energy can't satisfy our demands. The most scary thing is that governments believe it is a green transportation option and provide incentives for people to switch to fuel cell vehicles like what they did with diesel. By the time they found this is a terrible mistake (like what they found with diesel now), its already too late. Good point. When I read through the comments, there was one that I can't find now, but that really struck me. It was asking why would consumers want to buy hydrogen cars over a petrol/diesel one, given that they don't have many of the advantages of EVs or of petrol/diesel cars? They may be quiet and have watery tail-pipe emissions, but they have no cost advantage in fueling, and cost lots to buy, have sluggish acceleration, and could cause range anxiety due to a lack of refueling stations. T I guess I always think of hydrogen cars as being in competition with EVs (and they certainly get a lot of funding from some governments that I think should go into EVs), but for most potential purchasers, the person would be comparing them to a petrol/diesel car. It doesn't seem to me that they would look particularly good when compared, other than for some very tech-loving types. Perhaps hydrogen has more of a future for buses or stationary energy, although it needs to be clean hydrogen. |
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Post by jacky on Oct 18, 2015 20:29:32 GMT 11
Hydrogen fuel cell transportation will just make us spend more energy on transportation and eventually force us to use up all our energy sources and claim renewable energy can't satisfy our demands. The most scary thing is that governments believe it is a green transportation option and provide incentives for people to switch to fuel cell vehicles like what they did with diesel. By the time they found this is a terrible mistake (like what they found with diesel now), its already too late. Perhaps hydrogen has more of a future for buses or stationary energy, although it needs to be clean hydrogen. I may be a surprise for a lot of people that buses are very suitable for BEV. It is because they usually have a fixed route and the route won't be too long. Charging in the terminals may be just enough for them. I think trucks needs hydrogen fuel cells for the range they run but I see electrified train service with smaller trucks moving goods within the city make more sense. Btw, I also find a misconception that hydrogen fuel cell is just a battery but can contain more energy (Toyota said that). This is wrong as regenerative brake generate electricity and store it to battery but it is impossible for the electricity to be stored back to the pressurised hydrogen tank. All hydrogen fuel cell cars requires high voltage battery pack for regenerative braking. |
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Post by gabzimiev on Oct 18, 2015 20:35:29 GMT 11
the guys at work tell me hydrogen is good because it's just like a petrol car they go to the petrol station and fill up in seconds... this actually comes back to why hybrids are important because most people can't deal with a lot of change. so hybrids especially plug in ones introduce the concept of EVs gently.
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Post by empowerrepower on Oct 18, 2015 21:20:39 GMT 11
Hi Jacky, I agree that BEV tech is very suitable for buses. They are getting one up near Noosa before the end of the year, so I'm planning to go for a ride.
Gabzmiev, I agree that hybrids are a good type of bridge tech. As BEVs get longer range and better batteries, so that their advantages are more obvious to the average car buyer, I think people will get over the idea of needing to fill up on fuel. Think back to when mobile phones first came out - bulky, expensive, of limited usefulness, and unlike a landline, in need of charging each day. Once their advantages/extra features over landlines became more obvious with development, people became willing to do the re-charging that was never necessary before.
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Post by rusdy on Oct 19, 2015 13:12:13 GMT 11
the guys at work tell me hydrogen is good because it's just like a petrol car they go to the petrol station and fill up in seconds... this actually comes back to why hybrids are important because most people can't deal with a lot of change. so hybrids especially plug in ones introduce the concept of EVs gently. This is so true. The acceptance of Hydrogen by public is down to psychological advantage (instead of technical advantage). I myself often forget this and frustrate myself when I see comments in Hydrogen VS BEV thread. It's the same reason why people love 'engine noise', 'vinyl-is-better-than-CD', etc etc. D@mn human psychology! |
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Post by jacky on Oct 19, 2015 19:06:25 GMT 11
the guys at work tell me hydrogen is good because it's just like a petrol car they go to the petrol station and fill up in seconds... These guys are saying that they don't want freedom and love being rip off. It's fair everyone has their free will. The idea of cars need to be filled up at special location/facility is so deep that some people claim Tesla cannot be charged at home. |
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Post by EVangelist on Oct 20, 2015 21:52:50 GMT 11
The idea of cars need to be filled up at special location/facility is so deep that some people claim Tesla cannot be charged at home. I read the article (very good) and most of the comments - some of them are unbelievable. To me it's pretty simple - laws of physics. Hydrogen can't store a lot of energy. So you have a process of producing or capturing hydrogen, storing it (with some of it leaking - hydrogen is the smallest atom), transporting it, pumping it into a car under very high pressure, then converting it into electricity. To me, that is plain dumb. Why not, you know, cut out the middleman and just use electricity? My view is HFCVs are the last gasp of the fossil fuel industry trying to remain relevant and retain value in its storage, distribution, and service station assets. It won't work. My prediction is BEVs are too far in front of HFCVs and HFCV technology is fundamentally flawed. And one of the reasons is that the electricity grid is everywhere and we can charge at home. At the moment, there is one hydrogen pump in all of Australia, and no-one will ever have a hydrogen fuel tank at home. Convenience and efficiency with BEVs will win out. |
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