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Post by projectatlas on Dec 6, 2014 21:55:13 GMT 11
Hi everyone!
my name is Gabriel. I am living on the Gold Coast. I am VERY interested in living daily with an EV. But after some research I am not willing to accept the current sorry state of public charging stations in Australia.
Elon Musk is my personal super hero. I am following his example and trying to do something probably completely nuts here in Australia.
Please keep in mind that whatever I am writing here are the results of 1 week of brain storming on my own. I did not talk to anyone else about this idea so far. Here comes:
1. I want to drive an EV for the entire 2015 throughout Australia (Not so crazy or special, I know, you guys have done this for two years.)
2. I want to create a network of FOREVER FREE level 2 charging stations that will connect ALL major Australian cities by end of 2015
Here is the simple idea and blueprint of the ATLAS charging network:
I will be personally responsible for ATLAS 1 and ATLAS 2 on the Gold Coast. Postal code 4211 and 4216.
It will be standard level 2 EVSE, wall mounted outside fronting the driveway that is openly accessible and visible from the road.
I will pay for all the costs of the initial installation and all the future maintainence plus all the electricity usage, FOREVER.
Here comes the "catch":
Whoever in the world, does not matter where you are, here on the Gold Coast or on the North Pole, whoever install ATLAS 3 that is equal or better than my ATLAS 1 or ATLAS 2, get FREE UNLIMITED access to ATLAS 1 and ATLAS 2.
In return, I get FREE UNLIMITED access to ATLAS 3.
Same goes for the next one, owner of ATLAS 4 gets access to 1+2+3, vice versa.
The larger this network grows, the more likely it is going to grow faster. This should be particularly interesting to new EV buyers like myself who will spend money on a new EVSE anyway.
Its like paying for one EVSE and get every other EVSE already out there for FREE!
Don't know if all these make any sense to you guys or not, I have not slept much in the last 7 days. Hahahahah....
Btw, some background about myself: I know nothing about charging networks, I have no idea how you guys charge day to day.
Ok, as Elon always say in his interviews: your friends are your best critics, please open fire and don't worry about hurting my feelings.
I know no one who drives an EV daily, so you guys are my new best friends now.
Cheers!
Gabriel
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Post by gabzimiev on Dec 6, 2014 22:46:58 GMT 11
Why the catch? Just list it on plugshare like everyone else ?
Btw nice name I like it.
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Post by projectatlas on Dec 7, 2014 0:37:47 GMT 11
Hi Gabzimiev, thanks for the very first comment.
Simply by listing it on plugshare will not kickstart the multiplier effect. We human are selfish by nature. Also we have a inner sense for justice and fairness. When feeling disadvantaged, we like to withdraw and choose the safer option: do nothing.
Please let me explain:
I offer 2 high quality level 2 EVSE in return for 1 extra EQUAL quality EVSE. The first participant feel its a slight advantage to him and its just. But if this network is available to anyone who does not contribute at least as much down the road as himself, he will feel taken advantage of by some people.
End result will be that gradually you will get lots of leachers and very few quality providers. Like what happens in movie filesharing. If the running cost of hosting is not entirely free, then gradually the network will die.
However, if the QUALITY of the network is maintained, then old and new contributors will be equally happy in the long term. After all, most likely the site they will host is at their home and they will be their own best customer.
The ATLAS charging network is not meant to be competing with commercial charging station like ChargePoint. The ATLAS is the ultimate insurance policy for any EV owners who want the range and CERTAINTY of charging availability.
Its like the normal car insurance, we all pay a small premium to the network. But we do expect very high quality of service (certainty of payout) if we do get into accident.
The reality is that 88% of charging is done at home. The rest of the charging in the public is probably done at commercial locations at high traffic area. Most drivers regardless which kind of vehicle are not driving long distances all the time.
I would imagine that realistically some one pull up at my ATLAS 1 and ATLAS 2 to charge their EV will be a once per week event. Most likely an emergency. Since all ATLAS station owners have equal rights and access to all others, I feel that in the long term, it is going to follow the organic exponential growth path of bacteria in a petri dish.
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Post by projectatlas on Dec 7, 2014 0:47:40 GMT 11
Please allow me to paint the final road map for ATLAS:
If all goes well, EVERY new EV buyer in the world should be willing to share their EVSE with everyone else who switched to EV. So on the future smart phone app of ATLAS network, you will see millions of dots of ATLAS stations. All with up to date status report online. Ideally ATLAS will be part of every new EV purchase program.
I envision that every EV driver should have an ATLAS ID, just like we all have an email address or mobile number.
So if all goes well, in the future, the global map of all ATLAS charging stations will resemble the ATLAS of the world.
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Post by projectatlas on Dec 7, 2014 8:46:30 GMT 11
Good morning again! More ideas and more questions for all:
1. Can the EVSE for Volt (the one retail for $350) be used on all plug in EVs?
2. Can it be used in outdoor environment even when its raining?
3. Does it void any car battery warranty if it is been used to charge anything else than Volt?
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Post by gabzimiev on Dec 7, 2014 9:05:09 GMT 11
Good morning again! More ideas and more questions for all: 1. Can the EVSE for Volt (the one retail for $350) be used on all plug in EVs? 2. Can it be used in outdoor environment even when its raining? 3. Does it void any car battery warranty if it is been used to charge anything else than Volt? 1. yes except Tesla model S and 2010 I-mievs (still don't know about porsche , I have a list here rechargingnsw.com.au/introducing-our-7kw-aerovironment-and-elektrobay-evse/ ) 2. the J1772 plug can be but the 3112 10amp GPO side is not water proof. 3. no Nissan can't tell and I can't see why it would effect it. |
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Post by projectatlas on Dec 7, 2014 9:22:14 GMT 11
thanks for the fast reply, went to your website and just figured out we both are Gabriel!
Here is my beginner question:
A simple metal box similar to those meter boxes on the wall with a 15 A outdoor socket plus the Volt EVSE stored inside the same box.
Will such a simple design be hardy enough to be left outdoor for years without servicing?
Can such a simple design recharge most EVs with either low battery status or broken mobile EVSE or both?
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Post by lesmando24 on Dec 7, 2014 9:29:52 GMT 11
Hi projectatlas, I have been trying to do the same thing up in Brisbane.
The Gold Coast City Council is going to install a charger in the Bruce Bishop Car Park at Surfers Paradise (not sure of the date yet).
I am donating charging stations to destinations that people want to go to (e.g. parks / theme parks / places of interest)
Places I have been looking
- Game Over Electric Go Karts (http://www.gameovergc.com.au) - Manager will never call me back. Drove there to check it out, but they couldn't find the manager.
- Morayfield Shopping Centre - Tried calling and emailing, but no reply.
- Australia Zoo - They replied (Hooray!!), still waiting for them to assess a suitable place to put a charger.
- Dreamworld / Seaworld / Wet n Wild / Movieworld / Outback Experience - not tried to contact yet.
- Gatton - Nissan in town or Adare (Mountain Biking etc) - not tried to contact yet
- Hidden Vale Adventure Park (Mountain Biking) - not tried to contact yet
- Willowbank - Not sure which raceway - not tried to contact yet
- Toowoomba - Highfields (Chocolate cottage) - not tried to contact yet
- Picnic Point Park - not tried to contact yet
- Esk - Lake Somerset Holiday Park - not tried to contact yet
I think I will need to make up a pamphlet / quick guide of the things the destination will need to look at so it does not look so daunting.
thanks,
Les
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Post by projectatlas on Dec 7, 2014 9:57:42 GMT 11
Hi Les, how far are you away from Gold Coast? My place is just 3 mins driving away from Game Over. We should meet up and join forces! I can also come up north to visit you.
Right now I am still deciding which car to buy. Most likely will be the i3. Test drove last Monday, it was a such a blast!
My current game plan is very simple:
dedicate the entire 2015 to this cause and will drive around in my new i3 to meet as many decision makers as possible.
No office meetings, all fun stuff!
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Post by gabzimiev on Dec 7, 2014 10:04:10 GMT 11
sorry confused why do you have 2 EVSE but no car ?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2014 10:07:54 GMT 11
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Post by projectatlas on Dec 7, 2014 10:37:14 GMT 11
sorry confused why do you have 2 EVSE but no car ? In my feverish dreamy vision of the future, there will be far more EVSE than EVs. It's like you have today far more 10a AC outlet at home than number of appliances. I looked at my own situation as newbie to EV experience. The driving experience requires little to no learning. It's the charging that is pretty confusing at this moment. Project Atlas will get the charging part solved, whatever it takes! Btw, I don't have the 2 EVSE yet. Will need to design the solution first and then try to install the prototype and get some real world feedback first. |
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Post by estation on Dec 7, 2014 10:50:38 GMT 11
Hi everyone! my name is Gabriel. I am living on the Gold Coast. I am VERY interested in living daily with an EV. But after some research I am not willing to accept the current sorry state of public charging stations in Australia. Elon Musk is my personal super hero. I am following his example and trying to do something probably completely nuts here in Australia. Please keep in mind that whatever I am writing here are the results of 1 week of brain storming on my own. I did not talk to anyone else about this idea so far. Here comes: 1. I want to drive an EV for the entire 2015 throughout Australia (Not so crazy or special, I know, you guys have done this for two years.) 2. I want to create a network of FOREVER FREE level 2 charging stations that will connect ALL major Australian cities by end of 2015 Here is the simple idea and blueprint of the ATLAS charging network: I will be personally responsible for ATLAS 1 and ATLAS 2 on the Gold Coast. Postal code 4211 and 4216. It will be standard level 2 EVSE, wall mounted outside fronting the driveway that is openly accessible and visible from the road. I will pay for all the costs of the initial installation and all the future maintainence plus all the electricity usage, FOREVER. Here comes the "catch": Whoever in the world, does not matter where you are, here on the Gold Coast or on the North Pole, whoever install ATLAS 3 that is equal or better than my ATLAS 1 or ATLAS 2, get FREE UNLIMITED access to ATLAS 1 and ATLAS 2. In return, I get FREE UNLIMITED access to ATLAS 3. Same goes for the next one, owner of ATLAS 4 gets access to 1+2+3, vice versa. The larger this network grows, the more likely it is going to grow faster. This should be particularly interesting to new EV buyers like myself who will spend money on a new EVSE anyway. Its like paying for one EVSE and get every other EVSE already out there for FREE! Don't know if all these make any sense to you guys or not, I have not slept much in the last 7 days. Hahahahah.... Btw, some background about myself: I know nothing about charging networks, I have no idea how you guys charge day to day. Ok, as Elon always say in his interviews: your friends are your best critics, please open fire and don't worry about hurting my feelings. I know no one who drives an EV daily, so you guys are my new best friends now. Cheers! Gabriel Good Day Projectatlas. There are a couple of things you need to consider. The EVSE(charging cable) supplied with the Leaf, Volt, Outlander, i3 etc is hard wired to limit the car to 10 amps. The "box" on the charging cable generates a pilot signal that tells the car not to draw more than ten amps. The fact that some of these cables have a 15 amp plug is a safety feature designed to force electric car owners to install a dedicated circuit so that their standard domestic circuits are not over loaded by high load long drain devices such as electric cars or at least that's the theory. The on-board AC charger in the car will draw more amps when plugged into a level 2 charging station, up to 32 amps in the case of an i3 and 16 amps in the case of all the other cars. I personally think that most manufacturers will gravitate towards a 32 amp standard. Level 2 charging is fine for home and office when the car is parked for relatively long periods of time. However level 2 charging is not feasible for intercity travel. The leaf has a range of around 100 km at freeway speeds and takes six hours to charge from a 15 amp level 2 charging station. That means a 200 km trip will take 13 hours. Who in their right mind would buy a car that takes 13 hours to travel 200 km? Cycling would be quicker. The only options for intercity travel are DC fast charging and hybrids. I suggest that you opt for a DC fast charging solution and forget about public level 2 charging networks. |
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Post by projectatlas on Dec 7, 2014 12:23:14 GMT 11
Hi Estation, thanks for the input on the technical side.
Yes, I am aware that DC is a lot faster than AC. All your informations are correct.
My approach to the problem of unable to travel interstate is different. It's based on how mobile phones are connected to each other. Please allow me to explain.
The mobile phone has a very limited range for its signal. According to google, GSM standard has a maximum limited range of 35 KMs. And I believe modern 4G signals have extremely limited range of just few KMs if used indoor.
In my own humble opinion, the mobile phone's limited signal range is a similar problem as the limited range of an EV. I believe in the very early stage of mobile phone age like the 1980s.
Here is a quote:
"On 6 March 1983, the DynaTAC mobile phone launched on the first US 1G network by Ameritech. It cost $100m to develop, and took over a decade to reach the market.[27] The phone had a talk time of just half an hour and took ten hours to charge. Consumer demand was strong despite the battery life, weight, and low talk time, and waiting lists were in the thousands." source wiki article about history of mobile phones
I believe the same is with Tesla model S right now. Soon with other models like i3.
Now back to the topic of range and charging options.
Mobile users today NEVER really have range anxiety if they are with a good network supplier. And to receive a call, its mostly free forever.
How did the mobile industry solve the problem? Lots of smaller cell towers and many many more overlapping cell tower coverage. Now they are even installing tiny cell towers inside office buildings.
What has this to do with EV? My own vision of the future for EV is that EVERY parking lot will have FREE WIRELESS charging. The EV of 2020 does not need 85KWh, nor 60, nor 30, it might be just 10kwh.
Maybe in 2020, its so cheap to install wireless charger that the entire road system is covered with it. Maybe wireless charging is built into the road surface material when they create the road.
My point is, I suspect to make EV truly enjoyable experience, charging should not even be remembered anymore.
Of course, we are still far far away from that. So what is the next best thing to the final vision? Many many slow charging places everywhere.
If I know that I can have access to a cheap, tiny EVSE wherever I go, then those super chargers are just needed for commercial users like taxis or fleet.
Last but not least, I thought I would rather have 100 slow charging spots spread out rather than 1 super fast charging location.
1000 x 10A chargers @ $500 each for $500000
or
10 x 1000A Super Charger @ $50000 each for $500000
which one will the EV consumer choose?
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Post by projectatlas on Dec 7, 2014 12:32:14 GMT 11
Hi g41ber, thanks for the link. Its new to me. Just read through it. Still don't quite understand the free charger concept. Also it looks like they are not here on the Gold Coast yet. Would love to talk to you about it if we meet up one day. Do you think the i3 can be charged by the 10A Holden EVSE without problems? So far, it looks to that the 10A Holden EVSE is the lowest common denominator as reliable charging solution among all EVs on the market right now. I have zero experience so far with any of the systems. I have never even held a charger in my hand before. So please forgive me for my lack of knowledge and total ignorance of common knowledge in the EV world. The more you can share with me here and give feedback, the more I appreciate it. Thank you. |
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Post by projectatlas on Dec 7, 2014 12:41:31 GMT 11
Here is a theoretical case for everyone to consider and please give me your feedback:
Imagine the following things are true:
1. every vehicle on the planet is an EV
2. every EV has both slow charging and fast charging capabilities
3. charging is free forever both on slow and fast charging
4. ratio of slow charger vs EV population is 10:1
5. ratio of fast charger vs EV population is 1:100
Now you are an EV owner and user in this scenario, what would be your personal daily routine? How would you be charging your car?
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Post by gabzimiev on Dec 7, 2014 12:50:01 GMT 11
honestly before you spend any more time dreaming or scheming go out and buy yourself a EV. you need to understand as a driver the everyday practicability before you can dream up a charging network, of any type.
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Post by datsunleaf on Dec 7, 2014 13:41:30 GMT 11
What we need is a network of fast chargers spread out on the highways at around 80kmn intervals. For example, to travel from Western Sydney to Bathurst a charger at Katoomba and at Lithgow (and obviously at Bathurst) would be perfect.
Slow chargers in this situation would be impractical as what is a 2 hour trip in an ICE car would become a 10 hour drive.
Level 2 chargers would be perfect for motels to install so that you could charge overnight and start the day with a full charge, but need to be in conjunction with the fast charging network to make inter city travel in an EV practical.
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Post by projectatlas on Dec 7, 2014 14:10:43 GMT 11
honestly before you spend any more time dreaming or scheming go out and buy yourself a EV. you need to understand as a driver the everyday practicability before you can dream up a charging network, of any type. Yes, I agree totally. But it takes BMW Brisbane another 4 months at least to be able to deliver the car I like. Meanwhile, I am just playing crazy mind games. That's pretty true. Hahah.. |
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Post by projectatlas on Dec 7, 2014 14:17:38 GMT 11
What we need is a network of fast chargers spread out on the highways at around 80kmn intervals. For example, to travel from Western Sydney to Bathurst a charger at Katoomba and at Lithgow (and obviously at Bathurst) would be perfect. Slow chargers in this situation would be impractical as what is a 2 hour trip in an ICE car would become a 10 hour drive. Level 2 chargers would be perfect for motels to install so that you could charge overnight and start the day with a full charge, but need to be in conjunction with the fast charging network to make inter city travel in an EV practical. Yes, I agree absolutely that a super charger network like Tesla is creating should be mandatory for all places where EVs are sold. However in reality its a very tough business decision. Here in Australia, the only entity that is capable of doing this would be the federal government. But since they don't even rebate the purchase properly, I would not count on such a public solution so soon. Besides, look at what they have done with NBN. Would you trust them to deliver a Tesla like experience? I don't. |
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Post by projectatlas on Dec 7, 2014 14:21:13 GMT 11
One more clarification: my proposed ATLAS network is not meant to make interstate travel easy or comfortable. It just serves to make it POSSIBLE at all.
As a future EV owner, I would rather have a very bad network than NO network at all. What do you guys think?
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Post by projectatlas on Dec 7, 2014 14:22:59 GMT 11
Another question:
Has anyone in Australia EVER done a nation wide EV trip WITHOUT planning before?
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Post by lesmando24 on Dec 8, 2014 20:12:34 GMT 11
Hi, I live in Waterford. But only till January, then moving to Cleveland. I don't have time to do a nation wide trip, maybe once long service leave is ready  Could do a Bjørn Nyland and use generous peoples power points. Not sure on the long stretches around WA Les |
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Post by quaternary on Dec 8, 2014 20:56:36 GMT 11
Me, I would rather have one super charger than 100 slow chargers any day. On those odd occassions I've needed power away from home, I've got it from a normal power outlet. Other than that, I only have a desire for there to be one slow charging spot on the planet, and that's in my garage Now, if you could work out a sneaky plan for there to be a roll-out of fast chargers, then you'd be cooking. |
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Post by projectatlas on Dec 9, 2014 4:01:30 GMT 11
Hi, I live in Waterford. But only till January, then moving to Cleveland. I don't have time to do a nation wide trip, maybe once long service leave is ready Could do a Bjørn Nyland and use generous peoples power points. Not sure on the long stretches around WA Les hahah, we go IKEA once a week for the kids to play. Maybe we can meet up at IKEA logan. I am thinking about approaching IKEA for EV charging and parking options. |
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Post by projectatlas on Dec 9, 2014 4:04:54 GMT 11
Me, I would rather have one super charger than 100 slow chargers any day. On those odd occassions I've needed power away from home, I've got it from a normal power outlet. Other than that, I only have a desire for there to be one slow charging spot on the planet, and that's in my garage Now, if you could work out a sneaky plan for there to be a roll-out of fast chargers, then you'd be cooking. Thanks for the input. Those are the valuable infos that helps to shape ideas. Once the idea matures then it can be turned into reality. Regarding fast chargers. It's tricky since its so super expensive. With current low volume of EV on the road, it's very very hard to make an economic case for fast chargers. Tesla is probably the only real candidate who is serious about fast charging. But they got the money now to play this game. Their market cap is just half of BMW right now! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2014 8:19:07 GMT 11
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Post by stewartm on Dec 9, 2014 8:42:12 GMT 11
Interesting concept, I can compare both scenarios having a leaf in oz and one here in france where I am a number of months per year. Ps ikea here have free multi standard rapid chargers.
Here I have no range anxiety, even though I am away from large cities in the most rural part of france, I have 4-5 Chademo rapid chargers within 25km in each direction. They are all free. If I want to drive to Rennes, Capitol of Brittany 180km away, I have three rapid chargers on the way, usually use the one next to Ploermel McDonalds. Then in Rennes there are 7 rapid chargers to top up and return home. I use the Nissan dealer one as they have great free coffee. My nissan dealer in brisbane doesn't even have a chademo. A trip for serviceing takes a whole day, six hours on slow charge. Nissan should be ashamed of thier lack of support.
I drive at 110km/hr without concern, with or without climate.
I would not attemp that if all there were are level 2 chargers. I have a clipper creek level 2, 25 amp at home. This is great as I leave home full, and with winter here I can preheat the car off 230volts at home.
Level 2 chargers are not good for road trips as has been commented. The only real road network is chademo or equivalent. It's good yo have an emergency fall back, and plugshare covers this, I'm listed at Maroochydore.
You wouldn't buy a petrol car, that would only go 100km at highway speeds, then get 5 litres of fuel to go another 100km, fed through an eye dropper over 5 hours!
Nissan need to step up to the plate and start installing Chademo chargers if they really want to sell EVs.
I do commend your thought process tho..
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Post by gabzimiev on Dec 9, 2014 8:53:03 GMT 11
BMW have to do something in terms of providing fast charging if they are going to charge people $700 a car for the CCS port. right ?
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Post by Jim Hare on Dec 9, 2014 9:17:58 GMT 11
I agree. Outside of overnight stays I have almost no use for level II chargers away from home.
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