goldie
EV Enthusiast
Outlander PHEV owner
Posts: 18
LEAF OWNER?: No
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Post by goldie on Mar 8, 2014 10:21:52 GMT 11
I am a LEAF owner wannabe. I have a trade-in value for my car (15 months old Toyota Prius C with 15,000kms) and a drive away price on a silver LEAF. Nissan's $39,990 price on the 'old' gen1 LEAFs got me very interested since I fell in love with the first lot of Australian released cars but which I could not afford. My wife and I had our 1st test drive last Thursday at Essendon but that did not go well though. The car only had 37 kms range on the clock as we headed off down the freeway past the airport, and the aircon was on. When we got back 30 mins later, there was no range showing and just a kind message saying 'plug in now'. My wife had a drive from the turn around point and it took a couple of minutes to get the park off. Needless to say, driving on a freeway I hate and do not know, in an electric car with very low battery range was not a good introduction to the LEAF. My wife did not use her normal driving seat and say she does not like the car. While I would get the car no matter what, I am starting to have 2nd thoughts. I live in Bendigo Vic, 145 kms from the Nissan dealership. I have had the thought I might not be able to drive the car home on the one full charge. There are not level 3 chargers north of Melbourne (Bell St which is even closer to Melbourne than the dealership). Essendon Nissan only has one Level 2 charger, and while free and open to the public for charging, but only during business hours. If I get this car, I will be only able to drive, at best, within 75kms radius of Bendigo. The home charging port - I am still waiting for Origin to came to my house to do the report on whether I can get one installed. The price quoted was $2750 which seems to be the standard price. While its only been a week, I can't/will not sign a contract for a car without knowing. One of the reasons for this post, as well as to ask what else should I be considering, is the charger options. 1. Level 3 charging - no go until the network is built out of the metro area - I think I can live with this and it may never happen while I have this car. 2. Level 2 charging - pay to have this type installed at home - it would give 8 hour charging time with this gen 1 LEAF and its 3.3kw on board charger. The demo car also had a portable charger and cable but it seemed to have a 15 amp earth on the plug. How does this work and where could it be used? I found the sales guy was ok but he did not know all the answers to my questions. Do I need the Origin charger point if I just had a 15 amp power point installed in my house? Could that go under the carport next to my solar panels inverter? I have a few other questions but I will leave them till later if anyone is kind enough to reply to these now. Thanks Goldie
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Post by Jim Hare on Mar 8, 2014 11:07:36 GMT 11
Hi Goldie, Welcome to the forum! You have brought up some excellent points, but I think the news is all good. Yes, test driving with only 37kms on the guess-o-metre was unfortunate and really silly of the dealer to not keep it charged. The truth is you will quickly learn how the LEAF reacts to your own driving habits and conditions. For example, if you live in a flat area, you will get better range than a hilly one. For the majority of us we get between 125KM-180KM on a full charge in a wide variety of conditions. 1. For most of us, Level 3 charging is more of a novelty than requirement. If the vast majority of your driving is local then you will probably never need to charge outside of home. If you require regular long distance driving, and the LEAF would be your only car, then yes, this is a real concern and you might need to wait until the next generation, which will probably see range boosts. 2. Level 2 charging is an option but certainly not your only one. Many owners on the forum use the included Level 1 charger exclusively. Also, the charging time estimates have always been off. My experience is Level 2 will give you a full charge in about 6 hours and Level 1 more like 9. So if you are charging overnight then there really isn't a difference. There are also cheaper Level 2 chargers available, you will find many posts about them on the forum. 3. Yes, the included charger has a 15A plug on it. It is technically 10A but since it draws the full 10A Nissan were worried about constantly tripping the circuit or potentially doing damage. You can have a 15A circuit installed your house for a couple of hundred and use it. Some owners here have done that while others bought a 15A - 10A convertor that has a fuse which will pop before anything bad happens. Another benefit is it means the charger can be used anywhere, not just where you happen to find a 15A powerpoint. Important to mention that this is not condoned by Nissan and they have warned that it could have warranty consequences, but I think they are just being over protective as there doesn't seem to be any evidence that is a controversial thing to do. Haven't heard a single negative experience from anyone. Keep the questions coming! The LEAF may or may not be the perfect car for you, all I can say is all of us here absolutely adore it and for me it was the smartest thing I've ever done. Jim
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Post by Phoebe on Mar 8, 2014 11:19:16 GMT 11
Hi Goldie, welcome to the Forum I can't answer all your questions 'cos I know nothing about level2 and 3 chargers and very little about Melbourne. However I do know that if you install a 15amp power point in your carport you can charge your car from there all the time, but it is slower than other chargers. That's what I do, and when I charge during the day it costs me nothing as I have solar panels. There are also adaptors available so ou can plug into a normal 10 amp power point - most of us have one of these for emergencies even though Nissan says that breaks the warranty. We think the reason Nissan says that is because they don't want to be sued if someone burns their house down because they don't understand that the LEAF draws 9.7amps so you you shouldn't have anything else plugged into that circuit while you are charging - particularly not a jug or a toaster I live in Maitland and had to collect my LEAF from the dealer in Artarmon, about 151 kms away. I made that OK but going back for a service was different matter - either the hills are different going in the other direction or there was a wind blowing, but it didn't look as though I was going to make, and I was very grateful that Jim, who runs this Forum, let me charge up at his place along the way. The distance you get on a full charge depends on all sorts of things - the faster you go the less distance you can travel - you will go further on ECO than on DRIVE - you will go further on flat country than uphill - sometimes hilly country balances itself out with equal up hill and down hill and sometime it doesn't - you will go quite a lot further if you turn off the aircon (I never use the aircon). There is a now a dealer in Newcastle which services the LEAF so I am relieved that I don't have to go to Artarmon anymore because that really does produce 'range anxiety'. Only after you have had a LEAF for a while will you work out where you can go on what charge. We call it a 'guessometer' because the range it tells you you can go is only a guess worked out on the driving conditions of the last charge - if your last drive was on flat ground with the aircon off and you are now driving uphill with the aircon on, you won't be able to go as far as the 'guessometer' tells you you can go. And it will keep adjusting downwards as it realises the conditions are different. It is terrible that there was so little charge in the LEAF when you took it for a test drive and they didn't tell you how that would limit what you could do. It sounds like they are not very interested in selling the LEAF - quite a lot of dealers are not. There is usually only one person in a dealership who has been trained in the LEAF. I didn't get that person when I had my first Test Drive so I complained to Dean at Nissan Headquaters 1800 LEAF EV (1800 532 338) or email nissan_leaf@nissan.com.au. Dean made sure I had the person who knew about the LEAF for my 2nd Test Drive. Hope all this helps a bit. Each of us on the Forum loves our LEAF, and are very glad we bought it, even though it takes a while to get used to it.
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goldie
EV Enthusiast
Outlander PHEV owner
Posts: 18
LEAF OWNER?: No
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Post by goldie on Mar 8, 2014 16:26:45 GMT 11
Thanks Jim and Phoebe for the feedback. I was just going to roll over on the price for the Origin charger and get that one but now will look into it further. I may ask some more questions on that when I understand it more. My wife is another matter but we have been married for 36 years now so . . . . we will see. I have been reading some other page here, some good info for a newbie. Thanks again. Goldie
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Post by Jim Hare on Mar 8, 2014 18:13:52 GMT 11
Any time Goldie.
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Post by gabzimiev on Mar 9, 2014 14:34:15 GMT 11
goldie in reality the chargepoint home charger isn't that over priced the cost price of the unit is around $2000 and you would then pay about $500 for install anyway. so for an extra $250 you get access to chargepoints 24/7 support hotline if it ever stops working. and you keep Nissan happy warranty wise so the bad news I check the maps and yes the closest charging point to bendigo is Melbourne international airport www.recargo.com/sites/5320 you need to become a blink network member to use it, and the cost to park there is well airport parking costs ! just remember every caravan park will be fitted out with 15amp power points so basically every carvan park is a charging point (how much it costs depends on management) good news is that Melbourne has a rental LEAF so you can take one for an "extended test drive" so to speak "pye the leaf" www.goget.com.au/bookings/show_vehicle.php?vehicle_id=1516 i think he costs around $90 a day... it might be an option.
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Post by Brian on Mar 10, 2014 1:00:17 GMT 11
Welcome to the Forum, Goldie. When we had our test drive, my wife was so wrapped with the car, she didn't want to give it back to the salesman. But we were not able to write out the cheque at that exact moment, so I dragged her out of it. A little while later I was able to persuade the salesman to let me have their demonstrator car overnight. This gave us a chance to get more familiar with the car, drive it by day and by night, and test it for our conditions. If that doesn't work for you, then renting would be good. Any electrician can fit a dedicated 15 Amp socket ( direct from your meter box ) for you. You can then use the Level 1 EVSE that comes with the car, most probably for overnight charges. I like the Level 2 EVSE that we bought from E-Station. Rather than being hard-wired in, I ordered it with a 15 Amp plug, which gives portability. We seldom run down to close to zero battery, so find that often 2 or 3 hours on the Level 2 is all that is needed to top up the batteries. The LEAF is a great car - we are as happy with it today as we were when we drove it out of the dealer's yard eighteen months ago.
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Post by gabzimiev on Mar 10, 2014 9:45:21 GMT 11
Any electrician can fit a dedicated 15 Amp socket ( direct from your meter box ) for you. You can then use the Level 1 EVSE that comes with the car, most probably for overnight charges. technically it's a level 2 EVSE not a Level 1 since level 1 is 120Volt charging. why it's slower that the Nissan EVSE is that it tells the car to limit current draw up to 10amps and the e-station tells the car to limit current draw up to 32amps or 16amps (tech specs is confusing).
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Post by Jim Hare on Mar 10, 2014 10:40:39 GMT 11
So maybe Level 1.5?
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Post by Jim Hare on Mar 10, 2014 14:05:46 GMT 11
goldie in reality the chargepoint home charger isn't that over priced the cost price of the unit is around $2000 and you would then pay about $500 for install anyway. so for an extra $250 you get access to chargepoints 24/7 support hotline if it ever stops working. and you keep Nissan happy warranty wise Yeah, I have the Origin charger and love it. Completely easy and don't have to think about it, just pull up and plug in. If I used the included portable charger I'm guessing I would always be taking it in and out of the car to plug in and so on. Not a big deal but there's something nice about a permanent installation that feels right. I supposed it's all down to economics and its personal value.
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Post by Feng on Mar 10, 2014 14:53:46 GMT 11
I agree with Jim, we used the car's supplied EVSE for the first few months and taking it out of the boot every night to plug in became a chore. It's worthwhile to get something wall mounted, we did ours on the cheap and bought a Holden Volt EVSE which charges at the same speed as the OEM EVSE and is wall mountable. All for $368 (RRP is $350) without needing a 15A socket installed: ozleaf.proboards.com/post/2143
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Post by Phoebe on Mar 10, 2014 16:19:33 GMT 11
Well I don't find it a chore to take the car's EVSE out of the boot to charge, and I've had my LEAF 16 months. It's a very personal thing, different things become chores to different people.
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Post by Feng on Mar 10, 2014 17:14:43 GMT 11
We had to hook our 10-15A adapter up at the same time so that was an extra step. We also had to do it almost every day, not every few days so that added to the tedium. You're right about the personal thing, maybe it won't faze Goldie.
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Post by markrmarkr on Mar 12, 2014 14:18:24 GMT 11
[ Matt,
so the holden EVSE comes with a 10 Amp earth pin then. Interesting.
Mark
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Post by riddick on Mar 13, 2014 10:17:39 GMT 11
I have been using Nissan's EVSE and it is not a chore to plug it in as it is permanently plugged into the 15A power point in the garage. On the rare occasion when we drive further, I put it in the car. Looks like we are doing the reverse of everyone else. Nevertheless, I am looking at getting a permanent option in the garage, but not at the $2000+ range. I find that very expensive considering the simple circuitry inside it (all the power lines are straight through a switch and there is only a single signalling wire). I am trying to source the Bosh unit for $400-500.
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Post by Jim Hare on Mar 13, 2014 12:23:42 GMT 11
Yeah, the passive ones that only provide power are pretty cheap, and the truth is that's really all you need.
I have the you-beaut Origin that auto updates its firmware, has a card reader and all the rest, but only because they gave it to me for winning their little contest. If not for that I would definitely be opting for one of the basic ones.
In other words, the Origin one isn't over priced, it's just over engineered and overkill for the home user.
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Post by riddick on Mar 13, 2014 20:17:52 GMT 11
Interesting. What is the point of the card reader? Is it more aimed at being a commercial station?
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Post by Jim Hare on Mar 14, 2014 14:39:20 GMT 11
Yeah, it's the commercial version. Guess that's all they had at the time as I was the first private owner. Would be a total waste of money to buy it for a private house but it's kind of cool looking so I like it! You can see it in these product videos. That's me and that's my house. www.originenergy.com.au/3814/Products-services
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Post by gabzimiev on Mar 14, 2014 15:09:08 GMT 11
Jim you must have the very expensive one commercial with access control Origin Home ChargePoint $2,990* Origin Commercial ChargePoint – Non-Access Control $4,800* Origin Commercial ChargePoint – Access Control $5,050* I assume goldie just got a price for the basic one without card reader and networking. *prices are installed postcode 2077 from the origin website www.originenergy.com.au/electric-vehicle-charging/?purchase=
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Post by Jim Hare on Mar 15, 2014 8:19:38 GMT 11
Yeah that sounds right, I remembered them mentioning it was worth $5k. Seems like a waste to give one away to a private user but guess they wanted it to sound like a big prize. But the basic one still looks much more impressive than the cheaper ones, still has a display and so on. www.originenergy.com.au/3886/Origin-Home-ChargePoint
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Post by gabzimiev on Mar 15, 2014 16:20:12 GMT 11
Yeah that sounds right, I remembered them mentioning it was worth $5k. Seems like a waste to give one away to a private user but guess they wanted it to sound like a big prize. definite waste you should thinking about doing what one of the LEAF owners from qld I have on google+ suggested he's buying one of the open source EVSE to play with and is going to look at moving his chargepoint unit to his work (uni of qld) as a public charger. you could save some local company a couple $k by letting them buy you a basic one and then you can swap they can have the fancy thing.
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Post by Jim Hare on Mar 17, 2014 7:18:01 GMT 11
Yeah that sounds right, I remembered them mentioning it was worth $5k. Seems like a waste to give one away to a private user but guess they wanted it to sound like a big prize. definite waste you should thinking about doing what one of the LEAF owners from qld I have on google+ suggested he's buying one of the open source EVSE to play with and is going to look at moving his chargepoint unit to his work (uni of qld) as a public charger. you could save some local company a couple $k by letting them buy you a basic one and then you can swap they can have the fancy thing. Interesting idea!
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goldie
EV Enthusiast
Outlander PHEV owner
Posts: 18
LEAF OWNER?: No
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Post by goldie on Jun 1, 2014 1:29:57 GMT 11
I am a LEAF owner wannabe. Well not longer. I thought I would update this thread with this one last comment. No, I will not be getting a LEAF. But I have signed an order for an Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. I am due to take delivery next Friday 6th June. From the time I posted my 1st comment about buying a LEAF, I must have read every post about the LEAF, charging and batteries. As I said in that 1st post, our test drive did not go so well and my wife just did not like the car. Battery range was another major point I could not give any reassurance to her either. Reading all those posts has given me lots of knowledge about EVs, charging and all that goes with having an EV. I went to a meeting for the ATA electric car club in Melbourne for two meetings in a row. At the 2nd, a guy was talking about the Outlander PHEV he had just brought. I did not know anything about the car before that. Anyway one thing led to another, we had a test drive and my wife loved the car. We had to travel to Ballarat from Bendigo (about 120km) to order the vehicle and get a better trade in price than I could get in Bendigo. There was a lot of other things that led up to signing the contract but that's about it in a nut shell. Thanks to all who gave advice along the way. I hope I do not have to hand back my user login for this LEAF Forum. I did see a threat about the Outlander PHEV. I will use that one to record my journey with the PHEV. Us EV drivers have a long way to go, to get most Australian thinking about the benefits of EVs. Regards Goldie
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Post by caskings on Jun 1, 2014 1:55:01 GMT 11
Hi Goldie, congrats on your purchase. Will you be taking it off road? I'm curious to see how the PHEV Outlander performs in that regard.
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Post by leafboi on Jun 1, 2014 11:00:55 GMT 11
Excellent news. Any car with a plug is better than a car without a plug! I saw my first PHEV here in Melbourne on the road yesterday. Very excited, I missed my lane to turn. There are so many in Japan when I was there last can't wait for that many to be here too! And for country living it makes sense, plug in for your local trips around Bendigo, and the hybrid drive for your longer freeway trips.
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Post by gabzimiev on Jun 1, 2014 11:19:08 GMT 11
is it actually much better than the prius c in terms of consumption ?? the outlander is a big car. when i went for a test drive my wife and I wheren't that impressed with fuel consumption... the outlander went on the list of cars to consider if we have another child... couldn't bring ourselves around to looking at replacing the lancer with it. the EV only range didn't even cover my wife’s daily trip to work.
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goldie
EV Enthusiast
Outlander PHEV owner
Posts: 18
LEAF OWNER?: No
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Post by goldie on Jun 1, 2014 11:47:55 GMT 11
Hi Goldie, congrats on your purchase. Will you be taking it off road? I'm curious to see how the PHEV Outlander performs in that regard. Thanks Caskings. No I am not a 'off road' driver but in Bendigo to the east side of the buildup area, there is a track called Wildflower drive. I have ridden my push bike along it taking the dog for a run. I will give the Outlander a spin there. Goldie
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goldie
EV Enthusiast
Outlander PHEV owner
Posts: 18
LEAF OWNER?: No
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Post by goldie on Jun 1, 2014 12:09:15 GMT 11
is it actually much better than the prius c in terms of consumption ?? the outlander is a big car. Hi Gabzimiev. I have just had a look at my Prius C /mileage figures in preparation of getting the Outlander. 1st off, my definition of consumption is 'using less petrol'. I bought the Prius C to save money on fuel. It is a great car for that and who ever buys my 'old' car will get a great little car. I am upgrading to a plug in vehicle. Travel and fuel price log Toyota Prius 2012 Dates 2 Nov 2012 to 31 Mat 2014 (Total days = 575 and Total months = 19) Total Kms = 19600 (per day = 34 kms and per mth = 1031 kms) Fuel Avg = 3.9 lts per 100 kms or about 40 ltrs per mth Cost 1 ltr @ $1.47 Total fuel cost = $1125 (rough avg over 19 mths) About $58 per mth or about $705 total per year Summery for Prius About 34 kms per day (1031 kms per mth or 15000 kms per year) $58 per mth using 40 ltrs each month or $705 using 480 ltrs per year +++++++++++++++++++ Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV Projected (as of 31 May 2014) 30 kms per day Year = 10950 kms Using 5 km per 1kwh Year = 2190 kwhs @18 cents ea = $400 approx Est of petrol not possible at this stage. Now I should add, I have solar panels (2.5 kw system) and this last 12 months I generated 800 kwhs more that I used over that year. I am also one of the lucky few here in Victoria of being on the PFit tarrif (70 cents per kwh returned to the grid). I am happy to charge during the sun hours and forgo the 70 cents. We have to stop using fossil fuels. Goldie
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Post by Jim Hare on Jun 1, 2014 12:42:47 GMT 11
Hi Goldie,
That's great! In your situation, and knowing that you'll sometimes need to travel further than the LEAF range will give you, sounds like you made a very good decision.
And from your log it looks like you won't be using petrol at all unless you take the rare long drive out of town.
Couldn't agree more about fossil fuels. This isn't about will this car be cheaper to run than that car, it's all about bringing in the next great thing.
We will welcome you with open arms. There are iMIEV and Volt owners here and it will be great to get your info on the Outlander.
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Post by Phoebe on Jun 1, 2014 12:50:14 GMT 11
I agree with Jim, Goldie, but I have to say I'm jealous of your 70c feed in tarrif, I get only 8c
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