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Post by EVangelist on Oct 17, 2016 22:18:58 GMT 11
Our Leaf had its 2 year service today, and one of the questions I put to the service guy at SJN was whether the 2G TCU will be replaced under warranty with a 3G/4G capable TCU once Telstra closes GSM on 1 Dec (a mere 6 weeks away).
They didn't know, but on the service invoice they have listed "Check for TCU replacing - waiting on information from Nissan technical on TCU replacing".
So at least they are asking. It will be very interesting to see what the response is. Here's hoping.
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Post by stewartm on Oct 17, 2016 23:07:24 GMT 11
Yes be interesting to know the plans. Feedback is that 2G GSM is staying in for the predicted future in the Eu and U.K. As such they have no plans to swap out. Not sure about the USA. Does anyone know if optus is stopping thier GSM services? Is it just Telstra?
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Post by eburbsleaf on Oct 18, 2016 8:04:39 GMT 11
Thanks for the prompt , mines in for servicing tomorrow- I'll add that to the list of questions that I've got from this site (I checked my shock absorbers and they are both rusted).
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Post by EVangelist on Oct 18, 2016 8:40:48 GMT 11
Yes be interesting to know the plans. Feedback is that 2G GSM is staying in for the predicted future in the Eu and U.K. As such they have no plans to swap out. Not sure about the USA. Does anyone know if optus is stopping thier GSM services? Is it just Telstra? Optus is closing GSM from 1 April 2017 and Vodafone from 30 Sep 2017. I am tempted to pull out the TCU (it's not a simple process unfortunately) and change the SIM to an Optus or Vodafone SIM on a data sharing plan (hence nil incremental cost) to keep Carwings running for another 6 months or so. But in the end it will die unless the TCU is replaced. Even if I did pull the TCU out, a replacement SIM might not work if the TCU is carrier locked (very unlikely) or there is additional signalling between the car and the NissanConnect server to authenticate users based on service number of the SIM (more likely, hence no Carwings with change of SIM unless I also port the existing service number). I believe the VIN is programmed directly into the TCU so that bit should be OK. So I'll wait until I get some official word from Nissan before I start pulling the car apart.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Oct 18, 2016 8:55:27 GMT 11
Likewise.
It could finish up with a ruling from FT. The onus was for the franchise owner to research the concept altogether. They clearly missed the point. It's a premium product vehicle remember.
The franchisee may well be on top of the issue, so it's probably good to allow them free-reign at this point in time.
Of course, there will be a big fuss if they fail. Enough owners, and quite possibly Nissan themselves. They use telemetry to harvest data too. It would look pretty impressive IF Australia vanishes off the Carwings map suddenly!.
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Post by jake on Oct 19, 2016 11:36:42 GMT 11
I saw in a Green Report that Nissan were going to wait until it was actually switched off before doing anything. The reason given was that they could deal with all affected cars as a group. The other reason might be that the shutdown has been delayed 3 times already. It could happen again.
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Post by empowerrepower on Oct 19, 2016 21:22:10 GMT 11
OK, I'm a bit unclear here. Does it depend on your mobile phone carrier as to when your 2G in your Leaf will stop working? We're with Optus.
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Post by stewartm on Oct 19, 2016 22:22:45 GMT 11
No, it's Telstra SIM card in the tcu. Not relevant your your own phone. Still wonder why they don't keep it with all the GPRS trackers that use it.
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Post by EVangelist on Oct 19, 2016 22:59:57 GMT 11
I saw in a Green Report that Nissan were going to wait until it was actually switched off before doing anything. The reason given was that they could deal with all affected cars as a group. The other reason might be that the shutdown has been delayed 3 times already. It could happen again. Er, the shutdown has not been delayed at any stage, you can read the original announcement here. You could argue they are bringing it forward a month, originally they said the end of 2016, but 1 Dec is now the date, no doubt to get people buying new phones for Christmas. It kinda makes sense to deal with all Leafs as a group post-closure, but that also means we are without Carwings for some period of time and hence will end up with missing performance data, for the spreadsheet-obsessed among us.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Oct 21, 2016 10:09:08 GMT 11
Indeed. It's actually impressive how much the application is, and I theorise it will be quite a quick fix, change or even if they think, a porting of the numbers. The network closing at this band will cause big problems for many more, and I'm guessing they already have a plan. Of course the consumer law will be involved if nothing happens. The network is one thing, and probably aimed across the board, but there are thousands of units using this, and that includes hand held devices. Where I live, it is quite patchy reception-wise, and often drops back to it. Remember telstra are not the only players here, so pushing the numbers across to another may be quite easy. I'm beginning to learn the equation between what is said, and what actually happens does not equal 1. I'm quite happy to sit back and watch at this stage. It will not be un-noticed, and quite possibly resolved already.
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Post by eburbsleaf on Oct 21, 2016 11:55:47 GMT 11
I'd had my service this week and was advised to speak to Nissan Customer Service myself to get a detailed answer. The dealers will get a bulletin so they will know a bit more - but at the moment the dealers believe that its a software update only.
The very helpful lady on the Nissan Customer Service phone advised that a fix is in testing at the moment, its unlikely that Nissan will get the LEAF's back in to the dealers till January so there will be a period where carwings will go dark for a bit.
Advice is to wait for a call from your dealer to bring the car in in 2017 for the fix.
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Post by EVangelist on Oct 22, 2016 10:53:31 GMT 11
The dealers will get a bulletin so they will know a bit more - but at the moment the dealers believe that its a software update only. The very helpful lady on the Nissan Customer Service phone advised that a fix is in testing at the moment, its unlikely that Nissan will get the LEAF's back in to the dealers till January so there will be a period where carwings will go dark for a bit. Hmmm... I am very sceptical that this is a software update only. A GSM device can only talk GSM. If the network goes away, the GSM device becomes electronic junk. But it is good news that a fix is in testing! Thanks eburbsleaf. I wonder if they will try to charge for a new TCU or cop it under warranty? I imagine it won't be cheap (say $500 x 750 LEAFs = $325k). Ouch.
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Post by jake on Oct 22, 2016 11:56:35 GMT 11
I saw in a Green Report that Nissan were going to wait until it was actually switched off before doing anything. The reason given was that they could deal with all affected cars as a group. The other reason might be that the shutdown has been delayed 3 times already. It could happen again. Er, the shutdown has not been delayed at any stage, you can read the original announcement here. You could argue they are bringing it forward a month, originally they said the end of 2016, but 1 Dec is now the date, no doubt to get people buying new phones for Christmas. It kinda makes sense to deal with all Leafs as a group post-closure, but that also means we are without Carwings for some period of time and hence will end up with missing performance data, for the spreadsheet-obsessed among us. Yes, you are right, I must have been reading an article that applied to America or Europe about the delays. Yes we are going to have missing car data and no CarWings for a few months.
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Post by jake on Oct 22, 2016 12:01:55 GMT 11
The dealers will get a bulletin so they will know a bit more - but at the moment the dealers believe that its a software update only. The very helpful lady on the Nissan Customer Service phone advised that a fix is in testing at the moment, its unlikely that Nissan will get the LEAF's back in to the dealers till January so there will be a period where carwings will go dark for a bit. Hmmm... I am very sceptical that this is a software update only. A GSM device can only talk GSM. If the network goes away, the GSM device becomes electronic junk. But it is good news that a fix is in testing! Thanks eburbsleaf. I wonder if they will try to charge for a new TCU or cop it under warranty? I imagine it won't be cheap (say $500 x 750 LEAFs = $325k). Ouch. Yes I think it is impossible to turn a 2G Modem into a 3G Modem just with software. The TCU unit will have to be changed and it won't be cheap but Nissan will pay for some of the cost like they have in America hopefully.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Oct 23, 2016 21:14:04 GMT 11
Maybe not the case. The antenna is the first constraint, but maybe surface tuned, which then leads to the question...does anyone have any actual specification details about the module itself?. I wouldn't have thought NAU would have continued to sell vehicles if the writing was already on the wall. AU hasn't got the most advanced networks in the world, and it may well be a S/W over the air change to facilitate change. Indeed the TCU may have been down-tuned to suit country application. I'm finding that Nissan are quite perceptive, and happy to allow them to do what they do best. That's just me though.
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Post by EVangelist on Nov 8, 2016 23:21:46 GMT 11
I followed up with SJN regarding the TCU today as it is 3 weeks post service and I had not heard back from them. They told me to ring Nissan's customer support line, because Nissan would contact owners directly about this and not go via dealers.
So I rang Nissan up and they wouldn't tell me anything other than they know about the issue and are planning to contact users of Carwings an explain what will happen after Telstra closes GSM. I tried to get more info out of them but I could not extract anything, even when we might be contacted.
So I suppose the good news is it seems they won't simply ignore this issue, but we have no idea what they might do about it.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Nov 9, 2016 6:56:27 GMT 11
Probably comforting. I noted a few 'test' UID's recently on Carwings. As far as actually charging to replace the seemingly future redundant device, that's questionable, but a 'subscription' is a possibility at what can be considered a reasonable price. That price will either price it in, or out of existence. It's quite possible to do it all independently of Nissan AU though, as there is no reasonable point that they can refuse to release, or deny the owner data or specifics relating to a product they purchased. It's very easy to create a simple version of the server used, and if Nissan AU drop the ball, I'm sure Nissan themselves could be persuaded to accept & process the telematic data, so it can be incorporated into the worlds system. My guess though, is they would prefer to keep the customer base happy for future sales & good-will. It will cost them comparatively little. First one that is contacted, please post up here.
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Post by duncan on Nov 19, 2016 14:47:47 GMT 11
QQ on this, am I correct understanding that the nissan app will stop working at this time too? surely it uses 2g to talk to the car. As far as I'm concerned that is a major fault as the app was a key selling feature of the car; if vehicle out of warranty are not fixed at no cost I think we'll be taking it up with fair trading to get a remedy
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Post by 4wardthinking on Nov 20, 2016 16:40:18 GMT 11
Exactly. All had telematics in AU as 'standard equipment', and as it's a premium product, expectations & use are part of the telematics. To suddenly remove a feature, which, like many others was a deciding factor for purchase, may be open to trading scrutiny. The wife deals with this kind of issue all day long, as part of her work. She suggested that closure of a supplier that enables the system isn't a valid reason for not seeking another route. If there isn't any way to do this, it becomes another issue.. but this is not the case, 31/2 G is readily available. Nissan will have to be seen to take appropriate steps to circumnavigate external changes. It may be a simple S/W change to the TCU remember, but costs involved are not the purchasers problem. Now before many conclusions are jumped to, it's also a distinct possibility that an OTA change could happen without any intervention!. I sit back, and believe the possible issue is already being worked on, as many have noted, there are 'odd' user ID's on CarWings, and it's likely to be part of the work-around.
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Post by jake on Nov 20, 2016 18:25:31 GMT 11
I think the same will happen here as did America when they shutdown 2G. We will be offered new 3G units to be installed at partial cost to us. They won't be free.
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Post by EVangelist on Nov 20, 2016 18:52:30 GMT 11
I agree with Jake - we'll be offered a solution but it won't be free. Nissan Australia apparently took quite a bath selling the 500-odd Leafs here, they would not be too keen to compound that position even further. Leafs are not the only users of the Carwings platform, but I don't know what other Nissan vehicles have telematics in them.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Nov 21, 2016 7:30:06 GMT 11
AS far as I can read, there is nothing relating to the TCU & telemetry cessation of external resource in any of the literature or vehicle documentation about a vital/integrated facet being shut down. They could, if this doesn't hold true, close down LED headlamps, nor did anyone sell a mobile phone that has a use for less than four years, but no one mentioned the important part, then what would happen?. It's all to do with what is 'standard equipment' on the car. There will be no monkey fiddling with my LEAF, and charging me for something that hasn't failed. Surely they were aware of Telstra's intention at the time of selling the cars. If not, due dilligence has not been taken. even I'd heard rumours of the telco's intention before the cars were imported. They would/should have asked the simple question before selling a facet of the car.
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Post by EVangelist on Nov 21, 2016 14:01:32 GMT 11
Surely they were aware of Telstra's intention at the time of selling the cars. If not, due dilligence has not been taken. even I'd heard rumours of the telco's intention before the cars were imported. They would/should have asked the simple question before selling a facet of the car. Tesltra announced 2G closure on 23 Jul 2014, so not before the cars were imported. Even if Telstra were thinking about it prior to that date, it's hypothetical, not real, until the date it was actually announced. I think the only situation where you would have statutory rights is if untrue representations were made about Carwings when you bought the car, or if you could prove that you would not have purchased the car at all had you known Carwings was going to stop working on 1 Dec 2016 (I think that's a very big stretch for anyone to prove). We bought our Leaf in Oct 2014, so after the closure announcement. But we didn't ask about Carwings so no representations were sought and none were made. I'm not trying to be an apologist for Nissan here, but we should probably be happy that they are even doing anything about this. They could probably ignore it and still be safe under the law.
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Post by jake on Nov 22, 2016 11:21:44 GMT 11
Yes, I just want a solution and I don't mind paying a little to get it. What annoys me is that they are waiting for 2G to be shutdown before they do anything leaving us without CarWings for who knows how long. What worries me the most (although I think unlikely) is if they don't offer us a solution. I assume the new 3G TCUs they are using in America will also work here. So they already have the hardware. Now they just have to instruct the dealers to contact us and get the job done. I would have much preferred if they had done this before the shutdown.
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Post by Feng on Nov 22, 2016 11:35:43 GMT 11
My neighbour owns an Infiniti Q50 and he's on the same boat as us. He's going to find out what Infiniti is going to do for them.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Nov 22, 2016 13:23:05 GMT 11
Surely they were aware of Telstra's intention at the time of selling the cars. If not, due dilligence has not been taken. even I'd heard rumours of the telco's intention before the cars were imported. They would/should have asked the simple question before selling a facet of the car. Tesltra announced 2G closure on 23 Jul 2014, so not before the cars were imported. Even if Telstra were thinking about it prior to that date, it's hypothetical, not real, until the date it was actually announced. I think the only situation where you would have statutory rights is if untrue representations were made about Carwings when you bought the car, or if you could prove that you would not have purchased the car at all had you known Carwings was going to stop working on 1 Dec 2016 (I think that's a very big stretch for anyone to prove). We bought our Leaf in Oct 2014, so after the closure announcement. But we didn't ask about Carwings so no representations were sought and none were made. I'm not trying to be an apologist for Nissan here, but we should probably be happy that they are even doing anything about this. They could probably ignore it and still be safe under the law. Not relevant. I knew in 2012, irrelevant also. Car made mid 2012. Here, stock piled until very recently. The car is supplied with telemetry here as standard... why?. Would it be fitted without the basic reason for it. Clearly the system was depicted, without any caveats regarding AU versions. A useful similarity is air conditioner in the car. The unit stops, needs regas. Suddenly the refrigerant isn't available in AU. Do they say it was fitted, but now we can't get the refrigerant without looking elsewhere. The heater almost works... All standard!, and that's one big description items should be of merchantable quality, and fit for the purpose. And as per description. Standard equipment was the telematics interface across AU. If it had been an added option, it would have been another story. I expect my premium! Product to last at a minimum of five years, in line with stat warranty. External factors if absolutely not navigable, makes another point, but this is not the case, it can be done. I have no interest in what they have to do to use this, given they were aware, should have enquired more thoroughly than the 'average' person privvy to obscured information. Wether or not they didnt, the fact is that it can be remedied. This would stand. Manufacturers expense is not the owners problem here. Take for instance S Sung, and their recalls, has one any idea of the expense they had to bear. Now to park my derrière on the fence. I think that the car is fantastic, and sadly for the service leeches, costs very little to run. They may have their fingers burnt, but other countries have had their share also.... and that's the soot pump based vehicles alone. I'd like to see a 'timely' fix, if not, I'm prepared to take the issue further, including Japan. I'd also like to think Nissan AU are working this problem as I drible on here. Now, until I see the service cease, I worry not. I have personally witnessed very expensive recalls & after-sales issue fixes. The cost could be quite cheap when compared to others here, and they would probably take it. After all, why buy any Nissan item if external changes directly affect ones purchase... after so little time. The customer service aspect is a large method of sales & advertising. It is also a fact that AU is the EV Retard of 43 countries, so any black mark on the already small field of selling would have quite a large impact. Just imagine the adverse propaganda the media machine here would love to get its teeth into.. and world-wide!. Sit back & watch. Speculation breeds anxiety.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Nov 22, 2016 13:39:16 GMT 11
Yes, I just want a solution and I don't mind paying a little to get it. What annoys me is that they are waiting for 2G to be shutdown before they do anything leaving us without CarWings for who knows how long. What worries me the most (although I think unlikely) is if they don't offer us a solution. I assume the new 3G TCUs they are using in America will also work here. So they already have the hardware. Now they just have to instruct the dealers to contact us and get the job done. I would have much preferred if they had done this before the shutdown. Sadly, that's Australia for you. The one after the last, just like a Cows tail. Anyway... the TCU is on the recycled market elsewhere, and I may buy one, and do the "ever so complex" task of installing it myself. It's not difficult, in fact, simple to do, it's a module only, plus a quick re-knit!, and done. Despite unions hooting about not being trained, and rocketing the possible low cost solution very high. They would squawk about high voltages etc... not no where near this part. I could give the task to my wife, and have it completed. She has little interest in anything electronic or car orientated. The problem is the clear lack of any EV "mechanics". Maybe stop teaching the kids about the Holden & Cart would have helped us ten years ago. Now we all know how much after sales cash there is in an EV. There lies the problem.... They will be forced to rectify the problem. Either from within, or directive.. the choice is theirs, so I worry little at this time, but rest assured, if the integrated system fails, and NAU fail to respond, I, like many will be addressing it via legal channels. .....oh, and any other forms of media I can get my VPN into around the world. They stand to loose an incredible amount if they do not take this very simple vehicle failure, and fix it. Sit back & enjoy the car, let them do what they have been paid to do.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Nov 22, 2016 13:46:50 GMT 11
.... Plus!, it may not entail a module change, merely a bit of firm-ware could be the simple fix. Now maybe Nissan in AU have limited Consult systems, so there will be a slight delay, which I'm quite open to, but signing anything once it's been solved I will not do. There's a saying about rope & greed.
They "Should" offer to change the module free, and option ones own carrier. That way the owner has the choice of connectivity... or not. So easy, yet surrounded in so much angst, mystery and adverse propaganda.
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Post by EVangelist on Nov 22, 2016 15:01:36 GMT 11
Anyway... the TCU is on the recycled market elsewhere, and I may buy one, and do the "ever so complex" task of installing it myself. It's not difficult, in fact, simple to do, it's a module only, plus a quick re-knit!, and done. The TCU is programmed with the car's VIN and your Carwings account details, as it sends this information to the Carwings server when you connect to verify that you are who you say you are and that your Carwings account is valid. So replacing the TCU with one from elsewhere will not work, unless you have access to the specialised equipment Nissan uses to programme the TCU to have the same VIN as your car. I'm not even sure a SIM swap of the existing TCU to Optus or Vodafone (to delay the inevitable for 6-9 months) would work. I've not been able to find out whether the TCU is carrier locked or not. I suspect not, but you never know.
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Post by EVangelist on Nov 22, 2016 15:02:55 GMT 11
Plus!, it may not entail a module change, merely a bit of firm-ware could be the simple fix. I work in the mobile industry and I can tell you it is not a firmware change. The TCU radio is 2G only and nothing can change that. Hardware swap is the only solution.
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