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Post by jeffthewalker on Jul 28, 2016 23:18:59 GMT 11
Location (which is important!) aside - if ~15 motivated leaf owners contributed $1000 each that would allow a Veefil fast charger to be given to a business that would 'only' have to pay for install & run costs. Would I be willing to pay a sum to have a DC fast charger in an ideal spot (for me at/near Phillip island or on great ocean road) absolutely! Is crowdfunding the hardware cost and expecting a business looking to draw in patrons (cafe/restaurant?) to fund and install a way to drive new fast charge installs ? I think something is needed to start the ball rolling of fast charger availability - while I'd like someone else to do it, I think that it coming from the potential users is a good idea ... Your thoughts on the crowdfunding the hardware model ? After two months in WA earlier this year and two months again now, I have had many fast charges on the RAC WA electric highway. Just yesterday I returned from a trip to Perth from Collie. It is 200klms each way and requires a fast charge at Harvey (65km) and again at Mandurah (80km) arriving at UWA (75km) to use the DCFC there. Doing the trip in the LEAF adds about 1 1/2 hours to the "normal" driving time. Personally, I find this acceptable, as I get the benefit of owning/driving my EV the rest of the time. This trip was for a meeting and an overnight visit with friends would not be nearly as practical without fast chargers, thank you RAC (and other bodies) for the service. But, the DCFCs in this network are not seeing nearly enough usage (at $1 + $0.45 per kWh) to be a viable business proposition. I see this as two problems that need resolution. 1. How do you get more usage (charges per day). The average family LEAF (or other EV) owner will charge mostly at home. Picking a number out of the air, I will suggest 10 DCFC uses per annum (could be more, I am thinking of a 2 car family). I have noticed, particularly on the Gold Coast, that at least 80% of taxis are hybrids (Prius and Camry). This has come about because taxi drivers make a business decision for vehicle choice based on running costs, the biggest part of the budget. Uber trips are expanding fast (380,000 on the Gold Coast last year). I envisage that Uber drivers and taxis will change to electric sooner rather than later. If/when that happens, the DCFC usage will skyrocket. 2. But, we are in the early days of EVs and DCFCs and we will most certainly see a period of evolving standards. For a business with a long (5 year) payback period, you would not want your hardware to become redundant. Besides the obvious plug shapes and voltages and communication protocols, there could be a change in how Tesla and non-Tesla chargers integrate. I hesitate to even make suggestions. Add to this more advances in inductive charging (Plugless) and the nightmare of getting manufacturers to standardise around their inductive on-board hardware, I cannot see a private business model for DCFCs in Australia with the current rate of uptake of EVs.
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Post by stewartm on Jul 29, 2016 6:36:29 GMT 11
Fully agree Jeff, there is not enough EVs here to justify a business putting in DCFC units at this time. Maybe in a decade. In regards EV taxis, there are many in France. Took this pic of a tesla one while waiting to charge myself in June. The driver said he had put 80,000km on it in 8 months and recharged free for nearly all. That is probably a good business model for taxis as you say.
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Post by rusdy on Jul 29, 2016 13:07:13 GMT 11
...thank you RAC (and other bodies) for the service. So true... with the chicken and egg problem like this (infrastructure first VS number of users first), I'm grateful for AEVA, RAC and councils working together to make this happens. It gives huge benefit for early adopters and show to general public that this can be done. 1. How do you get more usage (charges per day). I can't see this happens in the near future. For those who are interested in using EV, there are simply no 'affordable' EV out there. If Australia adopt policy like NZ (allow cheap EV imports), this problem will be solved. I'm one of the lucky one to get 'cheap' second-hand Leaf (for AUD25k). 2. But, we are in the early days of EVs and DCFCs and we will most certainly see a period of evolving standards. This is the most annoying part. Trying to accommodate every standards is definitely not helping to push the cost down. The better standardised SAE J1772 charger is simply not enough for long drive. For example, I wish the one in crooked carrot cafe (Myalup) is a fast charger. I wouldn't hesitate to drive down south more often with the family. My Leaf has passed the threshold of battery degradation to drive comfortably (at speed limit) between Mandurah and Harvey . In short, business case for fast charger is simply not there, yet...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2016 9:08:28 GMT 11
How much is your 10kw chademo Stewart ? Do they make a Ccs type 1 units?
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Post by iamlsd on Aug 1, 2016 15:34:34 GMT 11
I finally got to use the 1 DCFC in Adelaide at the Mitsubishi site - fantastic from 3 bars to 9 in about 20 minutes. I won't really make use of it as it is only 15 mins from home but it was great to finally use that other great big plug . I would be happy to pay $10 a charge if they were available in good spots to go for a longer drive now and again. Hopefully they'll start to place them in the tourist spots / caravan parks rather then just in the metro areas. They might be commercially viable in the caravan parks if they encourage a few extra stays per year on top of a bit of revenue from a $10 use charge? Thanks to Jeffthewalker and Mitsubishi by the way.
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Post by jeffthewalker on Aug 1, 2016 19:38:45 GMT 11
I finally got to use the 1 DCFC in Adelaide at the Mitsubishi site - fantastic from 3 bars to 9 in about 20 minutes. I won't really make use of it as it is only 15 mins from home but it was great to finally use that other great big plug :). I would be happy to pay $10 a charge if they were available in good spots to go for a longer drive now and again. Hopefully they'll start to place them in the tourist spots / caravan parks rather then just in the metro areas. They might be commercially viable in the caravan parks if they encourage a few extra stays per year on top of a bit of revenue from a $10 use charge? Thanks to Jeffthewalker and Mitsubishi by the way. Yup. I had a couple of goes at the Mitsubishi DCFC. It saved my neck as I had left my EVSE behind at Murray Bridge and could not charge at the overnight caravan park I stayed in in Adelaide. In the morning, I fast charged at Mitsubishi and again at the top of the hill at the organic cafe and that got me to Murray Bridge. Whew. I don't see a business model for a DCFC in a caravan park as you would use a powered site if staying overnight. To have a positive return on investment you need something like 4 X $10 charges each day. And that is to recover capital cost over 5 years while meeting running expenses. The only way I can see to get a lot more than 4/day is to get the Uber/taxi/business fleet on side. Ordinary Joe will only use the DCFC 2 - 10 times per year. An Uber driver could use it once per day. And lately I have been worried that induction charging will become popular ( SAE TIR 2954). If that takes off before you can pay off your DCFC or if a conversion is too costly, you could lose your shirt (and pants).
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Post by 4wardthinking on Aug 1, 2016 21:56:01 GMT 11
From first impressions as a new EV owner(yes, NO GAS is back in South Sydney folks!), it is quite evident that people that have experienced owning an EV, cannot shout loudly enough about the pleasures of them, I'm already inspired to put a 15a socket on one of my drive-way pillars for fellow owners to use. I'm going to put a 15/32 dedicated one at the front of my garage also. This is more for the convenience of speed of charge, and of course aesthetic reasons. This would be where possible, available to fellows of similar ilk when possible. I have three phase to the home, and if I understand correctly, can be used by the chademo portable unit(need more data to be honest. I am grasping at straws really). Now take my attitude, and that of those I read about, there will only be a matter of time before the EV community has created a network of convenience. I do note little incentive or action from our voted in leaders though. It's quite shabby to say Australia shouts supposedly about how green it is, yet as previously written, and duly noted, little is done in reality. It's an inevitability that EV charging networks created by present day owners will be the back-bone of the EV in Australia. My question is if this is indeed the case, the inevitable lack of any kind of recognition is a safe bet. One may ask what did we expect?. One will be increased taxation in one disguise it another, and almost outlawing of public access to private charge points, either through hurried "regulation" changes or the likes, resulting in a new charge quantity control that takes the dollar for movement. It's s sad thought I know, but a distinct possibility. I'd help pay for a few strategically placed points, but it may be money I could appropriate elsewhere when hindsight materialises. They will be confiscated in a fashion, and the hard earned will vaporise faster than Aladdin. I suppose the lack of trust is obvious at this stage, and it is quite justified. Hence for the present, I will provide for EV minded people. Without this, we would be certainly encountering shortages far greater than present. The 20th century mode of transport should be nudged out of existence, and given public transport networks are(tongue in cheek following one MP's attempt to convince by photoshop that a bus can carry 42 adults 300km on one charge, yet be the same physical dimensions!) in this century, and of course the safety concerns are mythical illusions, there would be no great hardship. After all, aren't we trying to help our planet for that higher percentage of the population. Sadly, they also carry majority of the votes to put MP's in their chairs. It's a clearly awkward position to be in, but something has to give way. It's going to be an interesting 10-15years to say the least!. It would be prudent to consult more than a dozen V8 owners or investors. It's looking very likely that the past Australia being left behind is looking like it will be tomorrow's Australia, unless action is seriously taken presently. Then again, we could always invent a scare tax and spin again, but then again, can we be fooled again if it isn't the case?. I'd love to get involved. Still.....
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Post by iamlsd on Aug 2, 2016 23:32:05 GMT 11
I do love the thought of induction charging - just park and charge (https://www.pluglesspower.com/) or even charge up while you drive (http://www.altenergymag.com/article/2016/02/the-dynamic-road-ahead-england-to-conduct-trials-of-dynamic-wireless-charging-for-electric-cars/22820) Although it's been mentioned that it is very inefficient the concept is brilliant and I can't see why it wouldn't be hooked up to sustainable energy such as solar / wind. If the DCFC charges come down a bit perhaps the economic return wouldn't just be from the cost per charge but rather from that combined with driving customers to your business which might give you a return in a shorter timeframe if well thought out. Yup. I had a couple of goes at the Mitsubishi DCFC. It saved my neck as I had left my EVSE behind at Murray Bridge and could not charge at the overnight caravan park I stayed in in Adelaide. In the morning, I fast charged at Mitsubishi and again at the top of the hill at the organic cafe and that got me to Murray Bridge. Whew. I don't see a business model for a DCFC in a caravan park as you would use a powered site if staying overnight. To have a positive return on investment you need something like 4 X $10 charges each day. And that is to recover capital cost over 5 years while meeting running expenses. The only way I can see to get a lot more than 4/day is to get the Uber/taxi/business fleet on side. Ordinary Joe will only use the DCFC 2 - 10 times per year. An Uber driver could use it once per day. And lately I have been worried that induction charging will become popular ( SAE TIR 2954). If that takes off before you can pay off your DCFC or if a conversion is too costly, you could lose your shirt (and pants).
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Post by jeffthewalker on Aug 3, 2016 17:43:36 GMT 11
I do love the thought of induction charging - just park and charge (https://www.pluglesspower.com/) or even charge up while you drive (http://www.altenergymag.com/article/2016/02/the-dynamic-road-ahead-england-to-conduct-trials-of-dynamic-wireless-charging-for-electric-cars/22820) Although it's been mentioned that it is very inefficient the concept is brilliant and I can't see why it wouldn't be hooked up to sustainable energy such as solar / wind. If the DCFC charges come down a bit perhaps the economic return wouldn't just be from the cost per charge but rather from that combined with driving customers to your business which might give you a return in a shorter timeframe if well thought out. I believe the efficiency isn't all that bad, but I haven't been able to find a reference to the latest I read about it. What appeals to me it the picture of a taxi or uber driver pulling into a parking spot, grab a coffee and leave anytime. The software will look after the charge for charge.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Aug 7, 2016 9:39:39 GMT 11
Hmm, I note the opinions here with interest. Now is there a golden opportunity here?. It is clear there is no commonly advertised charge places anywhere outside of Sydney. If like to consider a starte business. Probably a quagmire, but worth looking into. Anyone on this board familiar with rules for building etc on here?. Can we get in contact off the forum?.
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Post by iamlsd on Aug 7, 2016 22:12:09 GMT 11
I guess the catch is this big wide land of ours - I'm looking for options around Adelaide but of course that would include an electric highway all the way to Sydney . I was reading up some info that Adelaide city council put up about their inner city free charging (4 spots) that don't get much use. I do use them but very infrequently and mostly as I get free parking as well - it is the out of city charging I would use if I could. I wonder what the upfront cost of a petrol pump is and how quickly you get a return on the investment - be interesting to see what is the current norm for making an economic return on something like this.
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Post by stewartm on Aug 11, 2016 10:05:57 GMT 11
Looking overseas at CHADEMO/Fast charging; UK: £6 per 30 minutes fast charge or around $10AUS for ~100km (Ecotricity) www.cleanenergynews.co.uk/news/transport/ecotricity-to-allow-30-minute-charging-after-consumer-backlash US: Price is 59 cents per kWh plus $2.95 service fee. 80%- $14.16US or ~$19AUS for ~100km (EV Fast Charging USA) France: Price €1.90 per 1.5 hours. so $2.85AUS for ~100km Compare that to a VW golf diesel 5l/100km @ $1.30/l = $6.50 per 100km. Of course charging at home here in Qld @ .28c kw/hr = $5.60 for a fill up of 20kWh The issue is what would EV owners be prepared to pay to get a fill away from home. The free lunches are coming to an end..
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Post by jeffthewalker on Aug 11, 2016 11:12:13 GMT 11
Looking overseas at CHADEMO/Fast charging; UK: £6 per 30 minutes fast charge or around $10AUS for ~100km (Ecotricity) www.cleanenergynews.co.uk/news/transport/ecotricity-to-allow-30-minute-charging-after-consumer-backlash US: Price is 59 cents per kWh plus $2.95 service fee. 80%- $14.16US or ~$19AUS for ~100km (EV Fast Charging USA) France: Price €1.90 per 1.5 hours. so $2.85AUS for ~100km Compare that to a VW golf diesel 5l/100km @ $1.30/l = $6.50 per 100km. Of course charging at home here in Qld @ .28c kw/hr = $5.60 for a fill up of 20kWh The issue is what would EV owners be prepared to pay to get a fill away from home. The free lunches are coming to an end.. For someone who mainly charges at home, I feel that $10/100km is acceptable for the convenience. From a business perspective, a taxi/Uber/fleet driver would be able to pay this ($0.10c/km) on a continual basis. In just a few years time (hurry up Australia) I envisage there will be a "standard" (see SAE J2954) for induction charging, so when a cab stands on a rank or pulls in for coffee, the car will charge (and "charge") automatically. Even for only a few minutes top-up.
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Post by EVangelist on Aug 11, 2016 14:01:03 GMT 11
Looking overseas at CHADEMO/Fast charging; UK: £6 per 30 minutes fast charge or around $10AUS for ~100km (Ecotricity) www.cleanenergynews.co.uk/news/transport/ecotricity-to-allow-30-minute-charging-after-consumer-backlash US: Price is 59 cents per kWh plus $2.95 service fee. 80%- $14.16US or ~$19AUS for ~100km (EV Fast Charging USA) France: Price €1.90 per 1.5 hours. so $2.85AUS for ~100km Compare that to a VW golf diesel 5l/100km @ $1.30/l = $6.50 per 100km. Of course charging at home here in Qld @ .28c kw/hr = $5.60 for a fill up of 20kWh The issue is what would EV owners be prepared to pay to get a fill away from home. The free lunches are coming to an end.. Let's not forget that a direct comparison between fuel costs and rapid charge costs is not particularly meaningful. With petrol, you can't refuel at home, you have to go to a petrol station every single time, and pay. With an EV, for most people, they charge at home, which is convenient and cheap. You only occasionally need to charge elsewhere (I have done it once in 20 months). So even if you pay for the convenience and it looks like higher $A / 100 km, it is just for that one time, not every time. If you only rapid charge (and pay) for 1 in every 50 or 20 or even 10 trips, you are way ahead, even if you pay $10 per rapid charge.
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Post by stewartm on Aug 11, 2016 20:16:49 GMT 11
Don't disagree at all, I charge at home 90% of the time. For me it's not just cost, I have solar that puts 8-10kw in per day. I'm comfortable being green and not using essence of dinosaur..
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Post by 4wardthinking on Aug 12, 2016 16:26:13 GMT 11
Looking overseas at CHADEMO/Fast charging; UK: £6 per 30 minutes fast charge or around $10AUS for ~100km (Ecotricity) www.cleanenergynews.co.uk/news/transport/ecotricity-to-allow-30-minute-charging-after-consumer-backlash US: Price is 59 cents per kWh plus $2.95 service fee. 80%- $14.16US or ~$19AUS for ~100km (EV Fast Charging USA) France: Price €1.90 per 1.5 hours. so $2.85AUS for ~100km Compare that to a VW golf diesel 5l/100km @ $1.30/l = $6.50 per 100km. Of course charging at home here in Qld @ .28c kw/hr = $5.60 for a fill up of 20kWh The issue is what would EV owners be prepared to pay to get a fill away from home. The free lunches are coming to an end.. Problem with old cooking oil burners (Diesel or the likes) is the servicing costs have to be factored in, and those nasty oil leaks too. The filter system is flawed, and destined to be history. Plus I'm fed up with wiping the crud from inside my windows from them, let alone the damage to my breathing apparatus etc. Sorry guys, I'm clearly not a Diesel fan. The problem often overlooked is inter-country comparison. One can't compare apples with oranges. The average earnings of Jo Blogs in England, and his other expenses are not the same as Australia, neither are they on main-land Europe. I feel that comparisons on commodities have to be contained within a countries boundaries and finances.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Aug 12, 2016 16:41:58 GMT 11
Meanwhile... I'm in agreement with a proposal for an electric highway heading north and south... Of Sydney. Simple figures suggest only twelve S Chargers would suffice. This would encompass most of the lower East coast traveling distances, and destination/populated areas have their already existing L1/2's available. With a simple flick of the federal pen, this could!! Be in existence in less than 12 months. It is also reasonable to have a "charge" for this facility. A question is what is this charge comprised of?. Telstra(or the likes) can run data over power to ensure security, billing services and data collection. Not that difficult a "pen swipe" or vote snare to be honest, and given the somewhat in-appropriated fundings of White Elephants, this would be a more permanent, and visionary move.
We wait.....
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Post by jeffthewalker on Aug 13, 2016 20:48:41 GMT 11
Meanwhile... I'm in agreement with a proposal for an electric highway heading north and south... Of Sydney. .......... Not that difficult a "pen swipe" or vote snare to be honest, and given the somewhat in-appropriated fundings of White Elephants, this would be a more permanent, and visionary move. We wait..... Waiting for the Government is the slowest way forward. A startup or crowd funding would be worth a try. One DCFC at a time starting on the NSW Central Coast (Kariong) enabling a day trip to the area (Gosford, Ettalong, Terrigal). Or for an overnight stay at Newcastle (based on my 90km LEAF range) maybe with a shortish Level 2 charge at Long Jetty. Five financial members would host a DCFC putting up a 10% down payment and monthly payments over 5 years. With the location providing the parking space(s) and the electricity (or maybe not), the loan commitment would be $1,000 per month ($200 each). These are just ball park numbers please contribute real ones. Members would be responsible for the monthly payments, however, any income profit would reduce this. North Strathfield to Kariong is 70km. Kariong to Newcastle is 100km. I'll sign up as a member. Maybe someone will put their hand up to submit a plea for a grant. Three to four charges per day (average) would be required to fully make the payments. In Western Australia (where I am for a while), the three busiest DCFCs (UniWA, RAC Perth, Mandurah) average between a half and one charge per day based on the ones that have logged in on Plugshare.
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Post by stewartm on Aug 14, 2016 11:21:45 GMT 11
The new Noosa DCFC will be a good test as it is the first I know of in qld with a cost per charge. At around $10 a fill it will be interesting to see how many city people come up to the Sunshine Coast with thier EV and pay to charge and comfortably return home. www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/new-superfast-charger-opens-qld-highways-to-electric-cars-20160811-gqqkzs.html How Tritium's superfast Veefill operates 1. Tritium's superfast chargers can provide enough electricity for a 50-kilometre journey in 10 minutes of charging; time for a cup of coffee and check your Facebook. 2. After half-an-hour's charging – perhaps a walk on the beach – you can drive back to Brisbane. 3. The cost of the amount of electricity used is around 3.9 cents per kilometre, less than a four-cylinder petrol car - at around 6.9 cents per litre, Tritium says. 4. You will be charged around $10 to "fill the tank" or fully re-charge an electric car.
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Post by Feng on Aug 14, 2016 12:41:07 GMT 11
Sounds great. I like how they called it a "new generation". Maybe to Australia it is! If we had something similar in Sydney I'd be using it every now and then just to support it. I'd even organise meets.
So many Telsa stations popping up on Plugshare now. It's been a frequent case of, "Oh cool, new station nearby. Damn, it's for a Tesla".
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Post by jeffthewalker on Aug 14, 2016 14:30:32 GMT 11
Hmmm. Article says: "Noosa is also that distance where – if you wanted to do a day trip - then having access to fast charging at the destination is essential," Mr Sernia said. Not for me for that distance. I would need another at the highway service station at Glass House Mountain. That is almost exactly half way and 70km from the DCFC at the UniQld DCFC. There is no way I can go 140km in my LEAF and even quite a bit less than 100km at highway speed.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Aug 14, 2016 21:44:29 GMT 11
Ok, subject to fine print, I'm in for a look at some figures at, or around Kariong. The question is how many more would be. There's a big Servo at the Gosford exit, now I wonder if they would be interested in a proposition do you think. I'd like to think they would have three phase to the station. If not a charger on their lot, there are a few small business areas behind it. The biggest question is return on the outlay for all concerned. Most would look for a minimum of 10% at a guess, and admittedly it would be a relatively long term outlay before return, the NSW Gov pull their socks up, watch and with ease, take it off the investors, or magically turn it into a Tesla Station. On the subject of a Tesla station, it's not much of a conversion to adapt, or retro fit a compatible socket. Given the Japan Market may be flooded with them in the future. The retro fit would be a simple hand shake, and power feed, like most, merely a hurdle, but the area either side is all basic power feeding. The incredible quantity of the a Tesla power stations being constructed does make me wonder how they got permission so easily, and what is the less than obvious driving force. I'm guessing once the few can afford the car, most will have problems. On the often repeated saying about new technology, we all know it's not, it's far from new technology. My gut feeling is it's a case of being spoon-fed with purpose. Alas, what can the populous do about it?. I note today a fool hooting about 4 million spent on Football, which in reality will benefit very few. Did this "oh so generous" look beyond the horizon at all?. I'll climb down now to the last century once more....
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Post by 4wardthinking on Aug 14, 2016 21:56:38 GMT 11
The problem for the Gov is how to charge a driver more for the same electricity his refrigerator runs on, and it's obvious there is no way to stop the person taking his electricity, and doing as he wishes with it, and that is the problem our "Gobierno retrasado' has, it spoils their out of the real word silly spending sessions. I for one would have very little problem in circumventing any half brained charge monitoring system fitted, after all, it's power, nothing else. I have yet to have good look at the Teslas power interface as yet, but it will happen, as it is around the 21st century world, and a simple socket with basic electronics is already being conjured up.
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Post by stewartm on Aug 15, 2016 9:59:22 GMT 11
In regards to the tesla interface for standard chargers, not the super chargers, it is the same as type 1 j1772 and type 2 62196 signalling. Ergo you can use a type 2 to type 1 cable to charge the leaf, slow however. Be an interesting option to talk with the owners where the tesla destination chargers are located as to the deal they have done with tesla. May be an option to install/co-locate a smaller Chademo ~20-25kW unit into the three phase that supplies the tesla unit. The difference in reality on a leaf is an added 15-20 minutes over a 50kW unit.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Aug 15, 2016 11:27:04 GMT 11
If this is the case, it may be an idea to find out if the owner(that's the deciding factor, who?). They could have a 'multi-discipline' charge station, and there would be potential benefits to them once the foot has been taken from the neck, and Au Gov allow(a lot less hurdles and killer taxes) manufacturers to import with greater freedom, and help Au come into the 21st century. It maybe the Chinese version will be so cheap as it hits our shores, that even with the phenomenal 'tax' invisible there will be the Trabant for the people, and Tesla with their semi Gov funding network will be the thing for most to dream of owning. Oops, wrong box!. But the big real question is the owners of the Tesla stations, and if they are allowed to embellish. I'd quickly adapt the sockets to suit a Tesla item, and having lurked over the net, see there are a few already there, and taking advantage of the popularity of the stations. It'd be interesting to see how manufacturers will put a noose around their necks with the outcome of Socket/protocols for charging. A friend of mine in the US with a Tesla is busy fiddling with CHADEMO already, and from what I can deduce, there's very little between them. Of course home charging is always available.
Anyone know who the owner of Tesla items really is?.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Aug 15, 2016 15:26:41 GMT 11
I just got this reply from outside of the goldfish bowl, and given my very brief, and overly simple questions, I got this reply. So here it is for all. There are 3 different USA Tesla "chargers". The car comes bundled with one called the UMC (Universal Mobile Connector) curled up in a bag in the trunk. Comes with two different adapter plugs, one for our 110vac 15A home outlets and another with NEMA 14-50R for 200-250vac 50A circuits. Actual draw is 80% of the circuit max. Then Tesla sells optional HPWC (High Power Wall Connector) which is designed to go on 100A circuits. Tesla will give these away for free to qualified applicants wishing to offer charging to their customers so long as there is no specific fee charged for charging. Is permissible to limit access to one's customers. Last I looked this box cost $750 MSRP. I found one new unused for less and that is what I have on the wall of my garage. For a Tesla to charge more than 40A on AC one must have ordered the Twin Charger option when the car was built. Literally two 40A AC chargers so the car can accept up to 80A. I didn't order that, don't think charging 58 miles of range per hour at home is all that useful over the standard equipment 29 MPH. Both UMC and HPWC speak J1772 but use a Tesla-proprietary connector. The story says SAE et al could not come to agree on the connector, on a connector capable of both AC and DC, before Tesla had to commit to production for the already delayed Model S (first in customers hands in 2012). So Tesla put their proposed connector into production. Its notable how L2 (AC) charging uses the same connector as L3 (DC). Uses the same pins for AC power as DC power. Teslas come with a J1772 adapter in the UMC bag. Its just a piece of plastic with J1772 socket on one end and Tesla plug on the other. No smarts, no electronics. Some non-Tesla owners purchase UMCs and cut the Tesla plug off to be replaced with a J1772 plug. Google "JESLA". Relatively low cost high quality high power portable J1772. Tesla Superchargers are DC-only. Until recently these were 135 kW with two mostly independent charging umbilicals. If two cars were connected the total between would be no more than 135 kW. Since the 90 kWh battery and Model X have appeared there have been reports of more than 135 kW flowing into a single car. I find a Supercharger puts about 100 miles of range in my battery in 20 minutes. 190 miles takes about 50 minutes. Have made a 540 mile trip from Huntsville, AL to northern Indiana (540 miles in one day) twice this year stopping a total of only 90-110 minutes. Start with a charge and charge again when I arrive, not counted in that time. Three or 4 stops, Nashville/Franklin TN, Bowling Green KY (home of the Corvette), Louisville KY, and Indianapolis IN. Plug into Supercharger, walk to restaurant and back, ready to go. I didn't order the Twin Charger option for my Tesla largely on the basis, "It doesn't matter". If the car has enough range to get you around during the day then plug in when you arrive home and it will always be ready to do it again in the morning. CHAdeMO that I've seen are all limited to 50 kW because CHAdeMO equipped LEAFs can only accept 50 kW. IIRC your L2 AC charging is limited to 7.2 kW? So even at that limit your battery will be full in less than 4 hours. An EV is driven differently than an ICE. With an EV one charges when the opportunity presents, not when the battery is getting low. My Tesla is always plugged in when at home. One area Tesla differs from others is in recommending not to routinely fully charge (or discharge) the battery. They recommend charging to no more than 90% of full range for routine use. Plus they make the charge limit settable by the driver and via smartphone app. I have a Tesla CHAdeMO adapter. Supercharger and CHAdeMO are both DC but speak very different protocols and us very very different connectors. Tesla was more than a year late in releasing the adapter due to quirks in multiple manufacturers and designers of CHAdeMO chargers. Said to have found many didn't follow the printed spec, just built something that worked with a LEAF. When SAE finally adopted a DC standard they modified the J1772 connector by adding two more pins for DC. This is called "CCS" and only used by the BMW i3 that I know of. Same 50 kW as CHAdeMO, but yet another communication protocol. Starting to see non-Nissan/non-BMW charging sites install dual protocol CHAdeMO/CCS hardware. Only one at a time functions but two cables to accommodate either without consumers having to buy an adapter. Tesla has an open invitation to other manufacturers for access to Superchargers on the same terms as Tesla owners: The manufacturers must foot the bill, no subscription fee, no per-use fee passed on to the users. So far no takers. This is a very good unofficial site of current Superchargers: supercharge.info. 286 sites, most have 8 charging bays. No one has anything close to that. Another thing to point out is that Tesla does not intend for Superchargers to be one's regular source of energy for one's car. Superchargers are intended to facilitate travel, not daily driving or commute. This is the opposite of the gas station model which most wrongly think is necessary for EV acceptance. I don't know what connectors are used in Australia for EVs. Know they are different from USA in Europe where government mandated one common connector. And thanks to that mandate got good EVs a couple years later than the USA.
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Post by stewartm on Aug 15, 2016 21:32:42 GMT 11
Yep, sounds correct. There are two types of CCS plug, a type one that has the j1772 plug and type 2 that has the Mennekes 62916 plug. They both use the same signalling for AC slow charging, From my experience France and Europe in general have gone with the Mennekes three phase supply system. This has one major advantage in that supplying a 22kw three phase outlet is very cheap, in an order up to 1/10th of a DCFC. The car of course has to do the AC DC rectification, as per the tesla with its one or two and the Renault Zoe with its choice of 43 or 22kW chargers dependant on model. This makes it so much easier for public cheap infrastructure, as evidenced by my other home department of Morbihan, France, about the size of Tasmania. It has 7 chademo DCFCs and 150 22kw AC chargers. Clearly that's a lot more options. As mentioned in a previous post, my option is to have a 10kW portable chademo unit that plugs into three phase outlets. This allows me to get the most use out of what options are available. It will be interesting to see if Renault bring the Zoe here as it has the onboard Accellerated charger that uses a 62916 plug, same a tesla here. Will Renault do a deal with tesla for cross use? That would make a good market for the Zoe in oz with the rollout of tesla destination chargers. My French Zoe at a 22kw charger, village of about 500 people at that point.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Aug 17, 2016 10:32:08 GMT 11
I note the interest in EV's from an AU Gov point of view, and the present chances of getting any kind of real choice, including from Renault, has as much chance of me growing a third arm. The reliance upon tax from burning bowser fossil fuels, is a reason enough when there are so many noses in the trough. The first question is how would the Gov milk the EV owner when compared to the Holden & Cart?. if they had as much drive to do this as the constant singling out of cigarette smokers, it would be obvious, alas there isn't a nose in the trough with any inclination to do so. If there was a 'campaign' of similar proportions, the old type of car would rapidly disappear.
Part of the "Great Australian Wait" by the looks of it.
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Post by Feng on Aug 17, 2016 11:44:41 GMT 11
When Hyundai brought their ix35 FCEV here last year, the Federal Minister for Industry and Science was at the launch to extoll the virtues of hydrogen based transport. Gotta wonder if it's because they can tax the hydrogen!
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Post by stewartm on Aug 17, 2016 13:35:56 GMT 11
They already tax the fuel for EVs. Australia has relatively high electricity cost. They wouldn't get owners like phoebe who charges by solar alone. I suppose that is akin to making biodiesel or having a still, too little to worry about. We also pay a rego each year of around $700 that goes to our roads, or so they say. Wee will continue to be taxed through the roof while we have three levels of government, local state and federal. Have a lot of public servants to support.
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