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Post by jeffthewalker on Dec 7, 2015 10:46:18 GMT 11
Just thinkin'.
"We" (in the thread title) are the corporations, businesses and entrepreneurs of this world.
EVs, clean energy, DC Fast Charging (DCFC) stations will happen fastest when there is a sound business model.
Where is the best place (from a business point of view) to site a DCFC?
If there was (say) one on the Central Coast between Sydney and Newcastle, would you now consider an annual trip, several trips or many trips to the Central Coast from Newcastle or from Sydney for a 'day out' in your EV?
Is there a market? This year, next year? In x years? Will you (EV owner or wannabe) use a fast charger for a fee? Say $1 for 2 minutes. $10 for an 80% charge for a LEAF. That is roughly the cost of the fuel for an ICEV for the same distance.
L2 charging infrastructure will have very little influence on the uptake rate of EVs. Having just traveled (slowly but enjoyably) 4,000kms using L1 and L2 charging I definitely know that I would pay the ICEV equivalent of the fuel cost for a DCFC station in the right place. But not in the CBD!
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Post by duncan on Dec 7, 2015 13:36:53 GMT 11
Yes, the business model has always been a problem. Most charging is free, and slow. So of course it is of no use to most of us most of the time. For some reason corporations have been worried about fast and cheap (say $5), or possibly even fast and expensive (say $20-$50) charging. I certainly would not have an issue pay up to $50 on infrequent occasions to recharge the car as it would let me plan things that are currently impossible. Let's face it, travelling the way you did was awesome, but it is not an option for anyone with any sort of time pressures The Tesla supercharger highway concept is about right; a series of chargers at 50-70% of available range where you can stop for 30-1hr to have a break on a long trip. I'd have no trouble paying for that
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Post by jeffthewalker on Dec 7, 2015 14:37:11 GMT 11
Yes, the business model has always been a problem. Most charging is free, and slow. So of course it is of no use to most of us most of the time. For some reason corporations have been worried about fast and cheap (say $5), or possibly even fast and expensive (say $20-$50) charging. I certainly would not have an issue pay up to $50 on infrequent occasions to recharge the car as it would let me plan things that are currently impossible. Let's face it, travelling the way you did was awesome, but it is not an option for anyone with any sort of time pressures :) The Tesla supercharger highway concept is about right; a series of chargers at 50-70% of available range where you can stop for 30-1hr to have a break on a long trip. I'd have no trouble paying for that Would you make a day trip to the central coast, fast charging as you left the highway and topping up for your return trip? Several times a year? Many times a year? I am trying to get a feel for numbers. I was born and raised in Sydney and available weekends as a youngster, and later as a free ranging teenager, found me on the Central Coast. And so was everyone else. The Pacific Highway from Gosford back to Sydney was a parking lot on long weekends and not much better on a normal weekend (1950s-1970s). I suspect (kinda hope) that a day out in the LEAF to the Brisbane Water area (Gosford, Woy Woy, Ettalong, Kilcare) would be natural for EVs that were usually "home" area bound. If the numbers are there (4-5 charges per day) by 2016 or 2017 there is a business case for a Veefil charger with CHAdeMO and CCS.
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Post by stewartm on Dec 7, 2015 14:40:02 GMT 11
I do not have an issue with paying equivalent ICE rates for energy on a long run. Given the cost of infrastructure, and I'm sure we pay for this for fossil fuel service Stations, it is appropriate that we pay for the that infrastructure in terms of a Tariff. They do need to be DCFC to be an effective option. LII is not an option with 4-6 hours refill. My time is a degree of money, so reducing that is important and I don't mind paying for it. In terms of trips, instead of using my 4WD ICE that drinks like a rugby player, I would rather take the leaf to Byron Bay and the south. We do that many times a year. In France most DCFC's are free, or you can get a "KIWI" charge card that you can pre load for those few that charge € per use. A good working example is FASTNED fastned.nl/en/ Charge at €0.35/KWH ~$0.50/KWH with a monthly fee. 47 fast charge Stations in an area the size of SE Qld. Example of one that uses the card, but it doesn't take any credit off the card as the Morbihan Department supports it for free. My French Leaf, same colour as my Aussie one.. Chargers at Baud and Le Faouët in Morbihan , Brittany.
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Post by gabzimiev on Dec 7, 2015 18:48:32 GMT 11
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Post by Cachexian (Gordon) on Dec 7, 2015 21:39:42 GMT 11
Yes, the business model has always been a problem. Most charging is free, and slow. So of course it is of no use to most of us most of the time. For some reason corporations have been worried about fast and cheap (say $5), or possibly even fast and expensive (say $20-$50) charging. I certainly would not have an issue pay up to $50 on infrequent occasions to recharge the car as it would let me plan things that are currently impossible. Let's face it, travelling the way you did was awesome, but it is not an option for anyone with any sort of time pressures The Tesla supercharger highway concept is about right; a series of chargers at 50-70% of available range where you can stop for 30-1hr to have a break on a long trip. I'd have no trouble paying for that Would you make a day trip to the central coast, fast charging as you left the highway and topping up for your return trip? Several times a year? Many times a year? I am trying to get a feel for numbers. I was born and raised in Sydney and available weekends as a youngster, and later as a free ranging teenager, found me on the Central Coast. And so was everyone else. The Pacific Highway from Gosford back to Sydney was a parking lot on long weekends and not much better on a normal weekend (1950s-1970s). I suspect (kinda hope) that a day out in the LEAF to the Brisbane Water area (Gosford, Woy Woy, Ettalong, Kilcare) would be natural for EVs that were usually "home" area bound. If the numbers are there (4-5 charges per day) by 2016 or 2017 there is a business case for a Veefil charger with CHAdeMO and CCS. i would.
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Post by stewartm on Dec 7, 2015 23:35:08 GMT 11
Meant to add my favourite, main DC @ Lorient, next to a great pub in a park in the centre of the city. Used it a lot.
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Post by jeffthewalker on Dec 8, 2015 8:34:33 GMT 11
Meant to add my favourite, main DC @ Lorient, next to a great pub in a park in the centre of the city. Used it a lot. Is that a DC fast charge station? It is not on Plugshare. That is in a good position as a launching place for a run North to Sunshine Coast, Gympie, etc. But a bit of a stretch from the farm at 120kms. From Lorient, with a couple of hours at Kunara at Forest Glen L2 I will look into it. I would like to do a regular trip to Gympie where I can charge overnight which then gives me a further 50km radius for a day trip.
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Post by stewartm on Dec 8, 2015 9:17:39 GMT 11
My apologies, that is Lorient France Jeff. I have a leaf in my house over there, and one here on the Sunshine Coast, I should have made that clear. It is a DC and AC fast, covers Mennekes, CCS and Chademo
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Post by EVangelist on Dec 8, 2015 23:08:16 GMT 11
I would travel from Sydney to Newcastle a few times per year. I think the perfect spot for a L3 charger would be the rest spot just off the freeway at Ourimbah, and is probably at the perfect half way point (in terms of energy use).
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Post by jeffthewalker on Dec 9, 2015 8:13:17 GMT 11
I would travel from Sydney to Newcastle a few times per year. I think the perfect spot for a L3 charger would be the rest spot just off the freeway at Ourimbah, and is probably at the perfect half way point (in terms of energy use). My spot exactly! I didn't want to say so as I am actually seriously dreaming about the possibility of privately owned fast chargers at strategic locations.
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Post by jeffthewalker on Dec 9, 2015 8:18:48 GMT 11
My apologies, that is Lorient France Jeff. I have a leaf in my house over there, and one here on the Sunshine Coast, I should have made that clear. It is a DC and AC fast, covers Mennekes, CCS and Chademo There is actually a Lorient Court in the North of Brisbane:-) and probably a bit north of that (Caboolture) is a good spot for a fast charger for travel between Brisbane and the Sunshine Coast.
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Post by duncan on Dec 9, 2015 8:20:46 GMT 11
The important thing I think most charging businesses has missed is that people would pay a significant amount for a fast charge compared to it's cost. So I'd say it this way, I'd be likely to use a fast charger 100klm from Sydney which cost $50 per charge about 4-6 times per year.
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Post by jeffthewalker on Dec 9, 2015 10:38:08 GMT 11
The important thing I think most charging businesses has missed is that people would pay a significant amount for a fast charge compared to it's cost. So I'd say it this way, I'd be likely to use a fast charger 100klm from Sydney which cost $50 per charge about 4-6 times per year. Exactly my thoughts. So $10 for a 20 minute LEAF charge is very acceptable and this gets you and your family into a "day" trip from Sydney to the Central Coast with a DCFC at Ourimbah. Exit the highway there, charge up and then venture the 30km or so to Ettalong, Kilcare, Avoca, Tuggerah Lakes, etc. Hit the DCFC again at Ourimbah on the way back and home at highway speeds. Some feedback from the WA electric highway puts the use at some stations at 4 charges per day. And this is just the beginning of the venturing out of EVs based in Perth and also the beginning of EV numbers in Perth.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 16:03:52 GMT 11
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leafmedo
EV Enthusiast
Posts: 38
LEAF OWNER?: No
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Post by leafmedo on Jan 23, 2016 22:14:20 GMT 11
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Post by jeffthewalker on Jan 24, 2016 13:17:15 GMT 11
Maybe the time charge (25c per min) would be good to discourage EVs from sitting after charging.
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Post by jeffthewalker on Jan 24, 2016 16:17:08 GMT 11
Maybe the time charge (25c per min) would be good to discourage EVs from sitting after charging. I have just returned from a walk (in the noon day sun:-). How about canvassing the taxi drivers and the ride-share owner/operators to see if there is an interest in their region for a fast charger. If so, this would really build up the charges per week quickly. I have noticed that on the Gold Coast (and elsewhere) there are a lot of hybrids (Prius & Camry) getting around as taxis. They obviously benefit hugely from regen to keep their fuel costs down. But I bet it would be cheaper to pay for a fast charge (if they had plug in) than to fuel and service their hybrid (or ICE). If that works, it would justify installing DCFCs in regional centres as well as my favoured sites within an hour's drive of a large city.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2016 20:34:17 GMT 11
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Post by jeffthewalker on Feb 4, 2016 9:57:51 GMT 11
Thanks g4. Great catch. It is worth reading the full article. That is pretty much my list. I am continuing to mull over a business model for viable private ownership. I am still in WA back in Qld in mid March when i will get back into VeeFil's ear and see what we can work out.
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Post by markrmarkr on Feb 6, 2016 10:24:18 GMT 11
Not nuch mention of the need to put DCFCs like 70km appart on country roads. I would think this was the most important issue.
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Post by jeffthewalker on Feb 6, 2016 12:14:41 GMT 11
Not nuch mention of the need to put DCFCs like 70km appart on country roads. I would think this was the most important issue. They are VERY expensive to provide. At least initially, for a business model to have any chance of success, DCFCs would have to be where the most traffic will be and where the travelers are prepared to pay for the service. I think about the huge traffic congestion that occurs around every capital city on weekends and figure that is where EV drivers would like to have a DCFC so that could take their family away for a one hour's drive of a weekend (or a day trip). Once you get past that first 100kms from the major population centres, the traffic thins out to a tiny percentage compared to the bulk of the traffic. When a DCFC is funded on a purely business basis and proves successful, then others can be planned where traffic levels will provide a profit. As EV numbers increase over the coming years, the DCFCs will be installed. Fastned in the Netherlands is a company that is giving it a go. The density of the population there helps them by having "the numbers" in a small area (33,000 sq klms) (Australia 7,600,000 sq klms).
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Post by markrmarkr on Feb 9, 2016 18:41:55 GMT 11
I think if you have to pay, most people prefer to charge at home. It is a matter of choice.
But there is no way to leave the city without FC out side of the city. No choice.
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Post by caroline on Feb 29, 2016 21:01:49 GMT 11
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Post by stewartm on Feb 29, 2016 23:12:21 GMT 11
My patch in France , Brittany, these are chademo rapid chargers, distance Brest to Rennes is about 230km to give you an idea of distance..
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Post by iamlsd on Mar 1, 2016 13:21:55 GMT 11
Wow - South Aussie gov / councils are just taking so long to put anything in place here. They make noises but nothing has happened yet. I know there probably isn't many standard electric vehicles here but the I think there is a bit of a thriving electric conversion hobby going on here and I'm sure if they put the charging infrastructure in place the electric vehicle sales would come along very quickly after.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Jul 27, 2016 13:11:34 GMT 11
Not at prices commensurate with fuel prices, no. But, here's the catch, they are as rare as hens teeth, and supply and demand is always an important factor in any business model. People buy EV's for a myriad of reasons bear in mind, one of them is cost cutting, or I'd retain the hybrids which charge their own battery with excise being applied once more. The trend would er toward hybrids, whilst being very efficient, they still consume the golden tax juice. Which, let's be honest us what central government cannot take a sudden drop in revenue on, if they are to keep blowing money on gestures to bolster their popularity. Having said all this, I'd partake, but not at that cost. I'll keep the LEAF at home, and use one of the Prii I have. So another important consideration is their enough financial incentive?. Carve all of the juicy pieces from the bone, and then it's why bother & good old Aussie complacency. City dwellers have no usual wanton drive to toddle up the coast for a traffic jam. There has to be a very clear, and spin-less message showing EV is the future. Fuel price revision/increase will have a multi-faceted effect on our nations fuel squandering. It'll affect the quantity of smoke belching vehicles from the last century, help reduce traffic, so reduce spending on roads & infrastructure to point out only one of many. But I'm almost certain the up-take of EV will be hindered by expensive, & time to "fill-up" faced at present. Btw, I am trying to figure out the same problem. The mother-in-law lives at Gosford, visited 3 times a week. The main reason we bought LEAF was cost for daily drive to work, which can easily account for 25% of net salary.
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Post by 4wardthinking on Jul 27, 2016 13:14:54 GMT 11
Oops, I got spell/grammar vandalised again!. Should read " visit mother-in-law every three weeks...". Sorry folks.
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Post by eburbsleaf on Jul 27, 2016 16:24:09 GMT 11
Location (which is important!) aside - if ~15 motivated leaf owners contributed $1000 each that would allow a Veefil fast charger to be given to a business that would 'only' have to pay for install & run costs.
Would I be willing to pay a sum to have a DC fast charger in an ideal spot (for me at/near Phillip island or on great ocean road) absolutely!
Is crowdfunding the hardware cost and expecting a business looking to draw in patrons (cafe/restaurant?) to fund and install a way to drive new fast charge installs ?
I think something is needed to start the ball rolling of fast charger availability - while I'd like someone else to do it, I think that it coming from the potential users is a good idea ...
Your thoughts on the crowdfunding the hardware model ?
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Post by stewartm on Jul 27, 2016 22:27:31 GMT 11
From my view the cost is infrastructure. Unless government has a drive or incentive to become involved, like reducing thier import of fossil fuels, or meeting EU requirements like in France, it won't happen. For a private business to install DC chargers expecting a decent return on investment would need a much larger uptake of EVs with range that would enable long travel. Maybe the tesla 3, bolt etc. Not financially viable at this time though in oz I believe. In the meantime, I think self management is the go for me. From my view, I have bought a 10kw portable DC chademo unit, that is small case size, keep in the boot with a three phase plug. I also keep a clipper creek lcs20/15 amp evse along with the supplied Nissan evse. She does complain there is less room for shopping bags.. I have contacted a number of strategically placed show committees and councils to use the power outlets in Showgrounds. The responses have varied from free, donation, $2 to a high of $5. None refused. The grounds are easy to find, rarely locked up, have toilets etc. Most power outlets are 15 amp, there are almost always three phase 32 amp outlets. I only need 16 amp. There are a number of Tesla outlets that also have three phase beside them, logical really. Example on plugshare, nambour police station, Maleny Showgrounds etc.. So in reality, I would not be "dry" when I fill, so 60 to 90 minutes on the DC at best. 2-3 hours on level 2. It's not something I would do regularly, but it's very doable. Jeff the walker has demonstrated what can be done. Yes the $2500 for the DC would buy a lot of fuel to quote a mate, but the unit doesn't disappear, it's still there and can be on sold. I saw a 6kw upgrade to the 3kw on board charger for the leaf at over $3000, so I effectively have tripled the charge ability for the leaf for a bit less. Anyhow, my remedy for a situation that I don't think will change here for the short term.
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