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Post by tomkauf on Oct 24, 2020 9:44:05 GMT 11
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Post by EVangelist on Oct 29, 2020 19:39:40 GMT 11
Well, we’ve bitten the bullet and getting a replacement battery pack for our 2012 LEAF at the “concessional” price of AUD 9990. I mulled over whether to fight for a warranty replacement (we went to 4 bars at 5 years and 8 months) but the prospect of the hassle and stress in trying to fight it, as well as the amount of time and brain space it would take up, meant we caved in. Nissan didn’t seem exactly enthusiastic that we wanted to do this, I’m sure they’d much prefer to sell us a new car. On 8 bars the car only just meets my wife’s commute needs on 100% charge, she can’t charge at work (in an open carpark) and she particularly hated it during winter when she felt she could not turn on the heater for fear of not being able to get home. I also partly rationalised it on the basis that we paid $40k for the car in 2014, so buying the second battery just increases our purchase price back to what the first LEAF buyers paid in 2012-13 I figure the battery we have is actually 8 years old now, so if the new battery gives us another 8 years of useful service, we’ll have gotten 14 years out of the car and by then there will be many more BEVs we can buy as a replacement. The new pack might not get here for 3-6 months, so I’ll report back once the swap is done.
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Post by brunohill on Oct 29, 2020 20:50:27 GMT 11
With a bit of luck it actually might have the improved chemistry and may last another 10 years or maybe more. I don't think the claims that they don't have the new chemistry have ever been proven one way or the other. The slightly different construction of the later 24 kWh modules should also help a little as they should "breath" a bit better, helping level temperature variation a little and making the temp probe readings a little closer to cell temperature. My Leaf would have needed a new battery for required commuting ( in winter) by the end of next year but a return trip range of 200km to get to the next 2 closest towns would be preferred. As there is no guarantee that a battery upgrade will be available in this country by then I have replaced the LEAF with a Kona. I am an ex/old electronics tech and was sort of looking forward to the challenge of rebuilding my own upgraded pack although I would need help with any software patches. Reluctantly I have bought an ex demo boring Kona that is still under warranty.
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Post by alison on Oct 29, 2020 20:53:29 GMT 11
My warranty replacement was approved in early June, still waiting. Don't hold your breath.
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Post by EVangelist on Oct 30, 2020 13:24:20 GMT 11
My warranty replacement was approved in early June, still waiting. Don't hold your breath. Yes, I’ve read the reports here, so indeed am not holding my breath. They told me that there is now a pipeline of batteries coming in since a number of LEAF owners are needing this done, and that it may only be 2 months. Perhaps yours is in this “pipeline” and will be here soon? But mentally, I am factoring in 6 months, and if it comes sooner then great.
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Post by EVangelist on Oct 30, 2020 13:31:56 GMT 11
With a bit of luck it actually might have the improved chemistry and may last another 10 years or maybe more. I don't think the claims that they don't have the new chemistry have ever been proven one way or the other. The slightly different construction of the later 24 kWh modules should also help a little as they should "breath" a bit better, helping level temperature variation a little and making the temp probe readings a little closer to cell temperature. That would be nice if that was the case. I’d be OK with another 8-10 years of life. It would really irk me if I felt that an otherwise perfectly good car was no longer fit for purpose after only 6 years. While I took on the “early adopter” risk with eyes wide open, I never thought it would come to this, but there you go. I comparison, after nearly 1 year, my Model 3 on full charge reports 497km instead of 499km. Draw your own conclusion.
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Post by brunohill on Oct 30, 2020 16:21:32 GMT 11
With a bit of luck it actually might have the improved chemistry and may last another 10 years or maybe more. I don't think the claims that they don't have the new chemistry have ever been proven one way or the other. The slightly different construction of the later 24 kWh modules should also help a little as they should "breath" a bit better, helping level temperature variation a little and making the temp probe readings a little closer to cell temperature. That would be nice if that was the case. I’d be OK with another 8-10 years of life. It would really irk me if I felt that an otherwise perfectly good car was no longer fit for purpose after only 6 years. While I took on the “early adopter” risk with eyes wide open, I never thought it would come to this, but there you go. I comparison, after nearly 1 year, my Model 3 on full charge reports 497km instead of 499km. Draw your own conclusion. I think conclusions on how bad the LEAF batteries are can really only be drawn after the 62 kWh LEAFs have been around 5 years. I think the leaf battery reporting is far more honest than the others and the deeper cycling of the smaller batteries also makes it hard to do a fair comparison. The Outlander PHEV batteries perform worse than the LEAF. This is probably because they are smaller and pushed harder. People sniffing CAN packets on Kona electrics are getting 100%, 100%,100% since they have been released. I guess it won't report any degradation until the 67 kWh battery reaches about 61 kWh which is about 95% of the quoted 64 kWh. As far as I know the LEAF is the only EV that has not had any battery fires. The only ones have been caused by people doing dodgy mods.
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Post by iamlsd on Nov 6, 2020 0:22:29 GMT 11
Note sure if people have already seen this Driven article or the youtube video it is based. I'm perhaps a bit lucky with my 2012 Leaf which I've had since new for 6 years and only 3 bars down. My work is a 60 Km round trip but I have access to a standard powerpoint where I park so I'm always fully charged for the trip home. Although I rarely need the full range I guess it is down to a little over 100 kms now. I do hope there will be an affordable semi mainstream option to replace the battery in a couple of years as it is still a great car to drive. thedriven.io/2020/11/04/nissan-leaf-owner-upgrades-ev-battery-for-under-a3500/
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Post by brunohill on Nov 6, 2020 22:22:48 GMT 11
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jaginoz
EV Enthusiast
Posts: 47
LEAF OWNER?: Yes
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Post by jaginoz on Nov 11, 2020 0:20:18 GMT 11
yeah saw this, really encouraging for those who can tackle such a job, but would be a stretch for us to do it alone. The battery readings are looking disheartening on the direct import Leaf we purchased interstate so we are going to have a chat with the local Nissan dealer, the state rep said Nissan will replace individual modules rather than the whole battery if the local Nissan maintenance computers can talk to a direct import. No price details as of yet.
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Post by Feng on Nov 11, 2020 10:54:10 GMT 11
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Post by tomkauf on Nov 11, 2020 14:52:50 GMT 11
Yes, definitely check what Feng suggested (assuming you have the 30kWh). We checked ours when we got it, and it has the latest firmware luckily. From memory, it ends in the letter 'C'. But you'd need the Pro version of Leafspy to see Firmware versions of the modules. But it's also useful to check if the car is throwing any Error Codes. Ours had a few, but they clearer with Leafspy Pro and never came back. EDIT: This article mentions the Firmware versions. 4C is the latest, with A and B being older. The old ones report much higher degradation on a physically healthy battery. flipthefleet.org/2018/30-kwh-nissan-leaf-firmware-update-to-correct-capacity-reporting/This screenshot just shows what line to look at in LeafSpy. It's actually from an upgraded Firmware that Evsenhanced wrote to reduce overheating during fast-charging (so you won't see that exact number, but it's the only screenshot I could find).
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Post by chuq on Nov 14, 2020 16:24:19 GMT 11
The Good Car Co in Hobart have just completed their first battery swap! 24 to 30. vimeo.com/474928500
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Post by coulomb on Nov 14, 2020 21:51:39 GMT 11
The Good Car Co in Hobart have just completed their first battery swap! 24 to 30. Nice. They mentioned the pairing tool, but not the CAN bus "man in the middle" device that seems to be need to fix the range estimate when you change battery capacity. Perhaps it's not so important when going from 24 to 30 kWh (a 25% increase).
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Post by brunohill on Nov 15, 2020 3:08:00 GMT 11
The Good Car Co in Hobart have just completed their first battery swap! 24 to 30. Nice. They mentioned the pairing tool, but not the CAN bus "man in the middle" device that seems to be need to fix the range estimate when you change battery capacity. Perhaps it's not so important when going from 24 to 30 kWh (a 25% increase). The comms socket on the battery would be different too. They must have an adapter or chopped off the plug and changed it. So where do you source 30 kWh batteries?
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Post by coulomb on Nov 15, 2020 10:43:10 GMT 11
So where do you source 30 kWh batteries? I imagine that the companies that import cars from Japan could also import large parts such as battery packs. But I've not looked into that. The other possibility is after-market new cells. Some suppliers are looking into that; pouch cells inside Nissan cans or completely different cell arrangements.
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Post by brunohill on Nov 15, 2020 17:09:29 GMT 11
So where do you source 30 kWh batteries? I imagine that the companies that import cars from Japan could also import large parts such as battery packs. But I've not looked into that. The other possibility is after-market new cells. Some suppliers are looking into that; pouch cells inside Nissan cans or completely different cell arrangements. So how and with what parameters do you reprogram the BMS or LBC for the different chemistry cells. Volts vs capacity/ regen level/ fast charge rate against temperature and SOC, Health/ internal resistance.. Power limiting under certain circumstances. Cell balancing limits etc would also be different for optimum results. If you could limit brake regeneration, only charge at a maximum of 3.5 kW and only use "say" 70% of the middle battery capacity, you might be fairly safe. It will still need to be programmed into it and most people would expect better performance not reduced flexibility. I believe some Russians and Ukrainians have been reprogramming the "LBC" but how well and how safe and for what life expectancy? I believe these are the issues that are holding up Blue Cars in NZ from releasing a product.
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Post by coulomb on Nov 15, 2020 21:31:40 GMT 11
So how and with what parameters do you reprogram the BMS or LBC for the different chemistry cells. It's early days yet. But a very simple device may be able to overcome the problems. I'm working with OzDIY on this. One Minicab has been converted, and is doing OK apart from the irritating need to adjust the device now and then as the BMS adjusts to the new battery.
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jaginoz
EV Enthusiast
Posts: 47
LEAF OWNER?: Yes
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Post by jaginoz on Dec 5, 2020 12:52:35 GMT 11
For some reason missed out the follow up on this thread. Thanks Feng and tomkauf.
After reading both articles - ours is a Japanese direct import to Oz (December 2015). We don't have LeafSpy Pro so can't obtain the info as per that suggestion. But we are wondering whether since the articles refer to US/UK markets (and Nissan OZ imports from UK) would our Japanese direct import have been affected (either by the initial problem or the fix)?
Sometime in January 2021 the local Nissan Service centre hope to be able to look at the battery and should be able to indicate which firmware version, right?
Or we can just go ahead and upgrade to LeafSpy Pro.
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Post by tomkauf on Dec 5, 2020 14:13:26 GMT 11
Yes, definitely affects Japanese models. There was a voluntary recall in Japan for the FW upgrade. I think it got more publicity in other countries, maybe because there wasn't a recall. Our Leaf happened to have it done while in Japan.
The dealer should be able to read the FW Version. So you can wait until then, if you want to save the money on buying LeafSpy Pro. I remember it wasn't cheap, but worth it. I used it to permanently turn off all the annoying noises.
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jaginoz
EV Enthusiast
Posts: 47
LEAF OWNER?: Yes
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Post by jaginoz on Dec 5, 2020 23:09:59 GMT 11
Thanks for that clarification tomkauf. On balance, it's probably reasonable to expect that the Leaf we have did end up with an update, since it was in Japan until early last year, and the log books show that it had a service (forget which kms - maybe 5000?). We're only hearing the standard greetings and admonition to drive safely on start up and have managed to mute those annoying "you are entering a school zone". Have to say that SD card swap over of the head unit will be very welcome when it arrives. Look forward to seeing what the service people make of the version in January, and what the cost/outcome for the weak cell swapout will be. And in the meantime, lots of good advice on other threads about preserving the battery life. Hopefully given the time and effort of people (knowledgeable enough) to experiment, the battery situation for everybody will improve.
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Post by tomkauf on Dec 5, 2020 23:18:35 GMT 11
No problem. Agreed. Your SOH is actually good, so that points to the BMS not underestimating. So it probably has the latest FW.
Actually, the most annoying noise is the reverse truck beep. And LeafSpy Pro hasn't managed to turn that off. I'd give anything to find that beeper and disable it!
But I turned off the Ignition-On bling-blong music, Charge Flap Open beeps, and low-speed exterior pedestrian-warning noises. I know I know, it's a safety thing, but I don't have a problem with people noticing me. Modern ICE cars are just as quiet at low speeds, and the button in the Leaf has the same temporary function.
Good luck with the cell replacement, hopefully it goes well.
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jaginoz
EV Enthusiast
Posts: 47
LEAF OWNER?: Yes
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Post by jaginoz on Dec 5, 2020 23:58:52 GMT 11
oh - yes! that reverse truck beep - you are right! it IS annoying. so we won't try turning that off, since you've had no success. We actually find the bling blong on helps us remember we are in the EV and not the diesel! Not sure we have yet managed to get close enough to a pedestrian to activate that noise, so will try that one out tomorrow. It's funny, seems that the car is noticed BECAUSE it's quiet. The dog is only just beginning to accept the black beetle with no noise
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Post by EVangelist on Feb 8, 2021 19:46:16 GMT 11
My warranty replacement was approved in early June, still waiting. Don't hold your breath. Any update Alison? We’re still waiting - no word at all!
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Post by alison on Feb 8, 2021 20:16:42 GMT 11
My warranty replacement was approved in early June, still waiting. Don't hold your breath. Any update Alison? We’re still waiting - no word at all! Same - no update here either. It's even worse than I had expected.
I chased them just before Christmas from memory but got the standard "we'll call you when it arrives" non-answer. The lack of range is really impacting heavily on our ability to make use of the car now.
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Post by brunohill on Feb 9, 2021 2:20:07 GMT 11
That would be nice if that was the case. I’d be OK with another 8-10 years of life. It would really irk me if I felt that an otherwise perfectly good car was no longer fit for purpose after only 6 years. While I took on the “early adopter” risk with eyes wide open, I never thought it would come to this, but there you go. I comparison, after nearly 1 year, my Model 3 on full charge reports 497km instead of 499km. Draw your own conclusion. I think conclusions on how bad the LEAF batteries are can really only be drawn after the 62 kWh LEAFs have been around 5 years. I think the leaf battery reporting is far more honest than the others and the deeper cycling of the smaller batteries also makes it hard to do a fair comparison. The Outlander PHEV batteries perform worse than the LEAF. This is probably because they are smaller and pushed harder. People sniffing CAN packets on Kona electrics are getting 100%, 100%,100% since they have been released. I guess it won't report any degradation until the 67 kWh battery reaches about 61 kWh which is about 95% of the quoted 64 kWh. As far as I know the LEAF is the only EV that has not had any battery fires. The only ones have been caused by people doing dodgy mods. www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCsTIV9BY2o Bjorn's 2 year old Model 3 has 8% degradation in Norway's cold climate. My Nissan LEAF ( 24kWh) degraded at 4% per year with no battery cooling with inland Australia's climate. ( Draw you own conclusion ?? )
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Post by moyanous on Feb 9, 2021 11:05:06 GMT 11
www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCsTIV9BY2o Bjorn's 2 year old Model 3 has 8% degradation in Norway's cold climate. My Nissan LEAF ( 24kWh) degraded at 4% per year with no battery cooling with inland Australia's climate. ( Draw you own conclusion ?? ) His Model 3 has done 80k km in 2 years though.
My 6 year old 24kWh leaf has lost 34.5% after doing 106k km. My 1 year old Model 3 has done 14k km and has no noticeable capacity loss.
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Post by johnmath on Feb 14, 2021 8:01:41 GMT 11
The Tesla has a 75kWh battery, by comparison the Leaf has a 24kWh battery. All things being equal, each kilometre driven in the Leaf will result in 3 times as much battery capacity loss as each kilometre in the Tesla, purely because of the smaller battery. The maximum number of kilometres that a BEV can be driven before battery reaches, say, half capacity is built into the size of the battery installed.
For a given number number of kilometres per year, excepting excess degradation due to heat, the rate of battery degradation will be inversely proportional to the battery size. Where the Leaf is at a severe disadvantage is that it doesn't have active cooling of the battery pack. Rapid charging of the Leaf's battery (all models and sizes) is the biggest factor in battery degradation, followed by heavy accelerator feet, especially in hot weather.
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Post by moyanous on Feb 27, 2021 11:28:50 GMT 11
My main gripe is not the fact that my leaf has degraded twice as fast as what Nissan was telling us (down to 70% after 200k km, 10 years), but rather with battery prices has plumetted in the 6 yrs I own the leaf, Nissan is still insisting that $10k is a subsidised price for a new battery. What's more, Nissan still refuses to sell us their new improved heat resistant lizzard battery to address the short coming of their original chemistry.
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Post by EVangelist on Feb 28, 2021 10:10:53 GMT 11
The latest update on my pack replacement is... there is no update. They have no idea when it will be shipped from Japan, or if it is already on a ship, when it will arrive... but have said they will try to find this out
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