Leaf vs others

[riddick]

The VW e Golf looks like a complete Leaf rip off:
 
news.drive.com.au/drive/new-car-reviews/volkswagen-egolf-first-drive-review-20131111-2xbds.html

Same engine size, same battery size, similar range.

So far, I haven't found a better electric car then the Leaf for its price (Tesla is nice but way out of price). 

Also just recently saw that the Volt has a 16kWh battery only and the computer does not let it discharge beyond 60%.  So really, its usable capacity is a third of the size of the Leaf battery...

[Phoebe]

Feb 19, 2014 13:05:54 GMT 11 riddick said:

Also just recently saw that the Volt has a 16kWh battery only and the computer does not let it discharge beyond 60%.  So really, its usable capacity is a third of the size of the Leaf battery...

But, even so, I have read that most people who own a Volt only use the electric motor most of the time.  Think about it, the average local daily commute isn't any longer than can be done on a third of the charge of a LEAF

[gabzimiev]

Feb 19, 2014 13:05:54 GMT 11 riddick said:

So far, I haven't found a better electric car then the Leaf for its price (Tesla is nice but way out of price)

We only have access to 2-3 EVs in Australia so it's not like you've driven many different types. the bmw i3 will be faster than the LEAF and have all the mod cons.

[Jim Hare]

Feb 19, 2014 13:16:52 GMT 11 Phoebe said:

Feb 19, 2014 13:05:54 GMT 11 riddick said:

Also just recently saw that the Volt has a 16kWh battery only and the computer does not let it discharge beyond 60%.  So really, its usable capacity is a third of the size of the Leaf battery...

But, even so, I have read that most people who own a Volt only use the electric motor most of the time.  Think about it, the average local daily commute isn't any longer than can be done on a third of the charge of a LEAF

True That...

[ravolt]

I went to the i3 launch in Perth last Wednesday. It is impressive inside, with smart trim and impressive electronic interfaces. however, the speech made it sound like a LEAF copy-cat. I would wait for the i8 if I could afford it. The i3 has no boot - more a low shelf, seats just 4, less headroom in rear than LEAF and less knee room too. It is lighter and with a stronger motor and an onboard ICE range extender. But, I still think carting and maintaining a second engine, all the time, is an unnecessary compromise. A tow behind range extender, for the odd time it is required, would be ideal, as it could also carry all the camping gear.

[riddick]

I think a range extender or hybrid setup makes the design overly complex. Hybrids are the worst, with such complicated engines that few places can service and there are much more things to go wrong then in either an ICE or EV. The whole point of the EV is simplicity and all the missing ICE parts, which not only reduces the weight but makes an EV super reliable.

I would love to see an extra connection port in the boot where I could plug in an extra set of batteries when going further. This may not be a cheap option now but over time batteries will only become cheaper.

If you had two EVs in the family, you could share the range extender batteries between them instead of having to buy big batteries in both cars.

[markrmarkr]

Feb 19, 2014 19:50:10 GMT 11 riddick said:

I think a range extender or hybrid setup makes the design overly complex. Hybrids are the worst, with such complicated engines that few places can service and there are much more things to go wrong then in either an ICE or EV. The whole point of the EV is simplicity and all the missing ICE parts, which not only reduce the weight but makes an EV super reliable.

I would love to see an extra connection port in the boot where I could plug in an extra set of batteries when going further. This may not be a cheap option now but over time batteries will only become cheaper.

If you had two EVs in the family, you could share the range extender batteries between them instead of having to buy big batteries in both cars.

I’ve downloaded a service manual for the Leaf and was looking at how you could do just that. Of course it would void your warranty, but I believe it can be done, without too much problem.

There is a guy in the US who appears to have done it already: www.greencarreports.com/news/1070677_2012-nissan-leaf-gets-unofficial-jet-powered-range-extender-quick-charger

He used a Jet motor to give 30KW of charge. I think this is over kill, but it certainly makes the point.

I'm in the process of buying a hitch (tow-bar for us Aussies), and already have a trailer as well as a couple 100 Kg of SLAs so I'm nearly ready to do some experimenting. I still have to design and build a power supply for metering energy into the car. And I need to be sure that what I'm doing to the car isn't going to damage it.

Step by step.

[riddick]

Sounds amazing, but it is much cheaper and lighter to buy spare batteries... and just drop it in the boot. Of course, the range is going to be more limited than with a jet engine :-)

[gabzimiev]

SLA are heavy for the power... just ask the EV convertor guys which have gone from lead to lithium battery packs. you can already purchase in australia a trailer with lithium batteries and a J1772 connector.. the problem is that you can't charge while driving.

[markrmarkr]

The boot is definitely an option, especially while experimenting. But I was thinking "that is where the controller should live too". So for the production version, it may get crowded - remember this is intended for distance travel, so the boot may need to accommodate baggage, an eski, sports gear, and stuff like that too. Also to make a real difference to range we’d need to be talking 100s of Kg of Lithium type batteries. This may overload the boot.

The other problem with this much Lithium though is that it would cost a bomb (more than $10,000). Maybe some time in the future the price will come down, but today it's probably out of reach for most of us. A better option, at least until the price of batteries comes down, may be some kind of motor-generator. Probably around 10KW, or ideally closer to 20KW. I know this is what we are getting away from by going electric, but we don't need to use it 99% of the time. Just for those long trips.

Another option is to put the controller under the car, as there is lots of room there, near the spare tyre. And the other thing about externalising the power source to a trailer (batteries/motor-generator/Jet engine etc) is that you can then give/lend/hire it to someone else when you don't need it.

[markrmarkr]

Feb 20, 2014 20:43:56 GMT 11 gabzimiev said:

SLA are heavy for the power... just ask the EV convertor guys which have gone from lead to lithium battery packs. you can already purchase in australia a trailer with lithium batteries and a J1772 connector.. the problem is that you can't charge while driving.

I agree Gab, and am only looking at using the SLAs for experimenting.

"The problem is that you can't charge while driving." - that's what I'm trying to solve.

Once solved (I know easier said than done) the next problem will be getting it through the regulatory authorities.

[riddick]

I like your idea about lending. Imagine being able to drive to your petrol station (or call it something else in the future :-) ) and rent a power trailer to get you to a distant destination. Then when done you return it.

On the other hand, we are only struggling with these issues because batteries are too expensive today. I imagine that some time in the future none of this will be an issue as they will be cheap and all cars will have a long range.

But I still like the idea of being able to share batteries between cars, to make it even cheaper for 2 family cars.

Re charging while driving, could the Leaf use the external power source to run from (ie do not charge the internal batteries but rather use power from both sources)?

[markrmarkr]

Feb 21, 2014 9:49:02 GMT 11 riddick said:

Re charging while driving, could the Leaf use the external power source to run from (ie do not charge the internal batteries but rather use power from both sources)?

Well the Leaf uses about 20KW to drive at 110 kph with no trailer, aircon, or passengers. So if you want to charge the car while driving at 110 kph you will need more than 20KW from the external source. This is what Phil Sadow did with his 30KW Jet engine. If your external source is less than this, and you want to go at 110kph, you will be using some of the power from the car battery too.

[riddick]

OK, here is what I was talking about:
"For the next five days, these 24-kWh packs will be available for a mere $3,600."

green.autoblog.com/2014/03/03/evtv-offers-deal-on-used-better-place-battery-packs/

These batteries are exactly the type and size of what the LEAF has. It is now available for about AUD4000 courtesy of the Better Place flip, supposedly this is cheaper then what Nissan pays for it. This is for a Renault, but it has 48 internal cells, just like the LEAF. The only caveat is that it weighs about $290kg.

All the smarta**es, who were predicting we will have to pay $10k when we will get to swap our batteries are wrong.

Maybe it would be worth buying a pack and splitting it up. Use half in the boot as a range extender as I was talking about it above and the other half as a battery for the house solar. This baby could run my entire house for 2 days, so if split, it would still last 1 day. I am on premium feed in tariff, so I could load up the battery overnight, and run the house off the cheap night stored power and feed in all the solar into the grid.

Only problem is how would I lift it into the boot. It would have to be turned into blocks say 30kg each, 5 of them.

Very interesting... and wonder how much is shipping.

[mike]

Here's my Leaf Range Extender. 6,000 HP, but kinda slow. Took the Leaf and relos to North Stradebroke Island for a Christmas Holiday at a beach rental where I could plug in with my Amphibian adapter. The Leaf would be a perfect island car as there is nowhere you can drive that is outside the range of the Leaf. I don't know what petrol sells for on Stradebroke, but I'm sure it's come at quite a premium.