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Post by leafboi on Nov 16, 2013 11:21:21 GMT 11
actually on economics it's really really hard to justify a Quick charger at all. just to recoup cost of electricity you would have to charge $10 a charge (16kwh is $5.66 at .35c and $10.56 at 66c peak rate and a $1.50 a day service charge) . so to start paying off capital cost you need to charge closer to $20 a charge. the only economic sense is when you install one to service your own fleet. I was in two minds on if it was worth mentioning them at all as it's more like to scare someone off. it also looks like there is a fairly large cost of installation $10k has already been quoted at Uni of WA. no only do you need to provide 3 phase power of nearly 100Amps but you also have civil works in the concrete base for the quick charger. 7 sites where rejected by ausgrid when selecting sites for smart city smart grid because of high site install costs. 1. Morisset Commuter Car Park 2. Coogee Beach, Randwick Council 3. Berowra RailCorp Commuter Car Park 4. Ourimbah RailCorp Commuter Car Park 5. Ourimbah TAFE 6. F3 Caltex Service Station Northbound 7. F3 Caltex Service Station Southbound. no real details are in the report on why these sites cost so much but it would of been a mix of civil costs and the potential need to upgrade power supply to site. So the site selection may induce a cost fluctuation of $2k-$15k . Maybe a separate document for quick chargers so the ideas and cost can be explored more. I try not to argue but... If your paying or anyone is paying .66c per kW they are being ripped hard core. No where I know of in Australia has rates that high. Please feel free to correct me. Most companies purchase their electricity in bulk over numerous sites not a per site basis. So to even consider that for example a petrol station pays the same power tariff as a residential house is absurd. You listed a whole heap of places that were rejected for chademo install clearly on the basis that the install would have been too costly. Ausgrid was not looking at installing the unit as part of real EV support as their are not enough yet to warrant it but more on the basis of trial. So of course the site with the lowest install costs would be selected. So now getting back to clear basics, any business or commercial building already has 3 phase power, they would have rates of power well under .20c per kW also. So your 16kwh charge comes in at a more modest max of $3.20 adding 10 to 20% for costs/profit and a charge there is not all that bad. The maths is simple but I'm sure also self explanatory. The more EVs the more that need fast charging the more units installed the cheaper they become.
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Post by gabzimiev on Nov 16, 2013 13:26:58 GMT 11
these are the sites selected: 1. Ausgrid Homebush Depot 2. Ausgrid Wallsend Depot 3. Westfield Tuggerah Shopping Centre 4. Westfield Hornsby Shopping Centre 5. Morisset Sports Ground 6. Ausgrid Somersby Warehouse full report can be read on there website www.smartgridsmartcity.com.au/About-Smart-Grid-Smart-City/~/media/Microsites/SGSC/Files/PDFs/Monitoring%20and%20Measurement%20Report/MMR4%20CA%20Electric%20Vehicles.pdf and more information on how they selected the sites is included in the report. LeafBoi your right 66c is closer to a residential peak rate but as for your maths, it's probably too simple your not factoring daily service charge if it's a standalone meter for just the level 3 charger. the other cost is network capacity charge 50KW charger will add approx $16.50 per day to your network capacity costs. more if you have to pay network capacity in KVA. as the chargers have a PF of ~0.95 . Mark you raise some good points about the 20Kw chargers they are available from ABB and others and you would assume would be cheaper. So i'll start looking at writing a separate document for level 3 chargers. and refer the first document to the 2nd for a more in-depth discussion.
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Post by markrmarkr on Nov 16, 2013 14:49:16 GMT 11
I think your on the right track there. Level 3 is not straight forward. And not for most punters. So it makes sense to separate it and explore the options properly. I think your doing a great job anyway.
Cheers Mark
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Post by gabzimiev on Nov 16, 2013 14:56:37 GMT 11
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Post by markrmarkr on Nov 16, 2013 15:40:47 GMT 11
Dont sweat eating your words. Anyone who puts themself out there (by doing something) has to make some mistakes now and then.
But having said that I hope the Aussie version is Chademo, as it will make life much easier for all of us.
I was reading that Chademo could have an upgrade path to 200kw too, which would mean it could compete with supercharge. Especially when Tesla make their adapter available.
Good times
Mark
Sent from my GT-P6200 using proboards
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Post by gabzimiev on Nov 17, 2013 0:35:56 GMT 11
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Post by markrmarkr on Nov 18, 2013 7:35:47 GMT 11
Interesting paper. Though I think it's overstating some of the costs - wiring is $20,000? I don't know how common 3-phase is (for instance in service stations). If it's already there, then a lot of this cost would go away. And it's handy that the charge rate can be limited to fit in with the local demand structure.
It looks like in some situations it may be possible to get away with just the cost of the charger - $25000, and (if you already have the right kind of 3-phase) that's it. Also, because the charger is semi-portable, it may be able to be sold, second hand, if necessary later. The business model looks a lot more workable at this scale, especially for a small operator in the country.
I had no idea the running costs were so high for the 50KW market. Though perhaps it's not as bad in Australia. But $1400 per year for 50KW has to hurt. It makes me wonder how it's possible those non-functioning Better-place Quck Chargers around the country haven't been disconnected (they look like they still have power). Someone must be paying the bill.
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Post by gabzimiev on Nov 18, 2013 9:16:38 GMT 11
the network capacity cost in nsw (ausgrid) I’ve previously stated is approx $16.50 per day so $6022.5 per year... Australian electricity is more expensive.
Mark i've pm you a link to the rough draft.
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Post by markrmarkr on Nov 19, 2013 8:53:38 GMT 11
Gab, I've done a bit of research and looking at the different J1772 plug standards between the US/Japan and Europe I can see more confusion coming. Though the two plugs look completely different they apparently use the same protocols on all the pins - hence they are both J1772 (and making an adapter should be quite simple). But how this translates to the combo plug is something I don't want to think about.
The one good point I can see is that the rest of the world probably views us as being a satellite of Japan. That is we are Right hand drive, and use the Yazaki version of J1772, The fact that we also use Cademo is neither here nor there as everyone uses Chademo. So anyone thinking about exporting a car to Australia will go to Japan first, sort out the kinks and then take it to Australia (I hope).
On the issue of the combo plug: being European, BMW's preference would probably be to use the Mennekes version of J1772. This will have problems here as there is quite a bit of Yazaki J1772 here and no Mennekes that I know of. This is complicated by the fact that they are not just using a Mennekes plug, they are using a Mennekes with the DC extra bit added - European Combo2. I believe this plug can be used for both L2 charging and DC fast charging. But as I said there is just no Mennekes infrastructure here at all.
I'd be interested to see what they use in the US. My bet is it will be Yazaki based. Either Yazaki Combo2 or more likely Yazaki L1/L2 plus Chademo. I say more likely because we know this is what they are using in Japan. But if they really want to cover all bases they should go Yazaki Combo2 plus Chademo. I say this because if Combo2 is to get any traction it has to be in the US and Europe. If they don't put Combo2 on the i3 then I'd say Combo2 as a standard is dead (still born). But if they put only the Combo2 port on the i3 then the car just wont sell, because there is next to no fast-charge infrastructure that it can use.
If the US version is Combo2 and Chademo, this could be what we get too. In which case the pain will start there. As the push will be on to give us the second fast charge standard.
My 2c
Mark
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Post by kris on Nov 19, 2013 12:02:22 GMT 11
I like the argument for the 25kw Fujis, it's a good size for a Leaf sized traction pack. The slightly longer charge time would probably be easier on the car battery too with the much lower initial charge currents. The lower power rating also sits much better with the typical 20A 3 phase outlets that predominate in Oz.
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Post by markrmarkr on Nov 19, 2013 14:36:25 GMT 11
kris,
you'd need 35 Amps to get 25KW on 415 three phase. But you'd need more if you allow for losses (+10%), and continuous loading (+20%). Still doable - but not for the faint hearted.
However Gab was talking about a 10KW Chademo which could do the trick with 20Amps. Charge time cut to a third.
Mike, are you reading this? We need you. How much do you think this would cost to install? 20Amp and more 3 phase?
Mark
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Post by gabzimiev on Nov 19, 2013 15:22:51 GMT 11
talking to the Elec Engineers at work a standard 3 phase install is 100amps so if all you have is the charger connected to the meters and nothing else you don't have to pay for network capacity charges etc..
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Post by gabzimiev on Nov 19, 2013 20:00:12 GMT 11
now we have have a fact sheet and more information, has anyone actually approached a company besides the one they work for to install a charger ? my next project is a hit list of likely companies... I was thinking chatswood and Westfield hornsby. since they have hybrid parking and oliversrealfood.com.au/ olivers real food since cashed up hippies is there bread and butter :-P anyone who lives near chatswood able to sign there name to a letter i write .... doesn't make since for me to request one from 170km away....
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Post by ravolt on Nov 23, 2013 12:18:59 GMT 11
Just a suggestion on locating the station, in Perth a few outlets I see are close to the shops/access, so the FFB park there for convenience. If the charge point are farther away they are less likely to become occupied by FFB
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Post by Phoebe on Nov 23, 2013 12:25:44 GMT 11
Just a suggestion on locating the station, in Perth a few outlets I see are close to the shops/access, so the FFB park there for convenience. If the charge point are farther away they are less likely to become occupied by FFB Good thought
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2013 8:50:01 GMT 11
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2013 9:12:58 GMT 11
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