Using Kickstarter to fund infrastructure?

[Feng]

My aborted plans to drive to Berry had me wondering: If businesses won't pay for chargers and Nissan/Chargepoint are taking their time with rolling out more, what if we used Kickstarter to fund chargers? It'll bring the cost per owner down if there's enough interest and owners can vote on locations they want.

Finding places to host and maintain the chargers is another challenge. Maybe businesses or councils can sponsor and bring the cost down further.

I don't know if there's enough owners and interest to make it worthwhile yet but it was just a thought. There's no charging infrastructure down south and a gap north of Sydney to make it to Newcastle (different story if the QC at Tuggerah worked!).

[kris]

How many Leaf owners in the Sydney basin? A dozen? CHAdeMO chargers are $20k a pop, closer to $30k-$40k with install. That's $3k each for each one we try to setup. Some seriously lateral thinking needed here or am I missing something

[Feng]

It doesn't even have to be a CHAdeMO, a L2 charger somewhere would be more convenient than trying to find a powerpoint at a shopping mall or caravan park.

Speaking of road trips, this was interesting viewing. 500 miles per day in a LEAF: www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZsZgGqZrSQ. Note how the temperature reached nine bars by the end of the day after ten quickcharges in cold weather. That's at least 45degC.

[Jim Hare]

Wouldn't just be LEAF owners, must be a few iMievs around plus a few BMW/Tesla owners will soon be looking for a solution.

I agree, Level 2 would suffice.

[kris]

I don't get L2. My Leaf charger is 3.6kw max so it takes 5+ hours to put back the 80% that CHAdeMO can do in 30 min. If I have to hang around for 5 hrs I may as well stay the night in a motel & use the 2.4kw EVSE that came with the car in a regular GPO?

[Feng]

It would be great to have access to more L3 chargers, no doubt about that. L2 can at least get you across the line to some places. Eg, driving to Newcastle from Sydney is between 140 to 180km depending on where you start. Pitting in at Gosford for an hour or two will safely get you there. A daytrip to Berry via Wollongong is another possibility as it's 127km away.

[kris]

L2s might be worth it with the 7kw in the new model but for the current Leafs I just don't see the extra expense over a regular power point is worth it for something that is only 50% faster. If you need a 30km top up for a run somewhere the standard EVSE will do it in an hour & a half the L2 takes an hour.

[Feng]

Finding a place that will let you charge along the way is half the hassle of long trips. Knowing there's a charge point there ready for use makes life easier.

Years from now when it feels like the 3.3kW charger doesn't cut the mustard (maybe when there are higher capacity batteries out), this mod looks good: www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=12323. Three hour charge times at 7.68kW!

[Mike]

This is the sexyist unit yet. These guys are in Brisbane and are looking at installing an electric highway in the Gold Coast. Perhaps we can lobby them (and other businesses) to do something similar around Sydney. veefil.com/

[lesmando24]

That is a good idea. I am saving to purchase a 20KW model from ABB. Tho I saw there is a 20KW upgradeable to 50KW coming, I emailed the sales people about specs / pricing / availability, but I have not seen anything yet. On previous pricing, anything 50KW is about 26,500 euro, plus shipping and installation, which adds to $45 - 50k AUD, plus access to networks (software for access control).

[gabzimiev]

I think we need to do more to encourage business too

i you look at recargo.com only 2 people have used the nrma fast charger in sydney www.recargo.com/sites/10536 I'm sure most people have but if your Westfield looking to spend your money spending $50k to attract 2 poeple isn't worth it.

also maybe we start writing letters to people who have charging points to thank them. so they feel there is a return on investment.

[Feng]

Hi Gabz. Is that David's LEAF in the photo? I'll have to stalk him and see if the numberplate is the same. Haven't seen Dave here for a while.

I post on companies Facebook thanking them for using their charger, they usually like that.

[Phoebe]

For those who are interested here is the info on what is happening to the Better Place Charge Spots.
'Nearly all of the ones still in situ are owned by the site owner/customer.
The company gave them the opportunity to keep them and pay nothing more.
ChargePoint have a 1800 number and support service for any customer who wants and paid for the customer list to enable them to provide this.
The QC units are (if they haven't already been) to be removed.
Two of these are or were at Westfield sites.'

[Feng]

I hope they find new homes for us to use!

[markrmarkr]

That QC at Honsby Westfield would be great for making the jump North. It would be such a pity to loose it.

I've used the QC at Stathfield a couple of times and it really is magic.

Does anyone know of any others, even nonfunctional in Sydney?

-------------------
Bye the way I bought that light and magnets you showed me on the trip Feng. It works a treat. Even helps me find the key to the garage

Attachments:

[Jim Hare]

Nov 8, 2013 11:29:50 GMT 11 markrmarkr said:

That QC at Honsby Westfield would be great for making the jump North. It would be such a pity to loose it.

It certainly would! It's in the perfect spot and would draw me to Westfield much more. Wish it could be brought back to life in place.

[gabzimiev]

when you log in to chargepoint it now says there are 763 EV drivers in the country (this is probably the best count we have) maybe we should all pick a location and put in separate charging station request for single site .... see what percentage it takes for charge point to install one.

[Brian]

An unknown benefactor has offered to supply a Level 3 Quick Charger to the University of W.A. at no charge, provided the university pay for installation and connection.

Catch is the cost of installation and connection through the monopolistic W.A. electricty supplier is $ 10,000.

Net result is that the project is on hold because the university does not have the $ 10K.

[gabzimiev]

I've written a factsheet for businesses looking to add EV charging, this might be a useful document when negotiating with your favourite shop to install a charging station.

docs.google.com/document/d/1FbTyLI7mdSVUCexgt9RCib4TRo5rYO2M7uKlYlBPTAo/edit?usp=sharing

Probably needs some proof reading by the way....

[markrmarkr]

Gabriel,

you did a great job. And I couldn't find any spello's layout or any other mistakes.

I only have one small gripe.

Towards the end, in the fast charge part, you suggest the SEA Combo. I think this is not a good idea as there are currently no cars in the country which can use it (to my knowledge), and may never be. Where-as Chademo can be used right now by the two main commercial vehicle types Leaf and i-Miev. (the volt doesn't use fast charge at all). This is the situation now, and at least for the next year or so it'll probably still be true if not for longer term.

you my find this article interesting:
insideevs.com/dc-quick-charging-battle-just-beginning-chademo-vs-sae-combo-vs-tesla-supercharger/

Once again well done.

PS I have given you an exalt

[gabzimiev]

At the same time there are articles like this gas2.org/2013/08/11/eu-drafts-bill-to-eliminate-chademo-electric-car-chargers/

so the recommendation is best to go with a dual CHAdeMO and SAE combo like the veefil , according to the Schneider there DC fast charger will have SAE comobo .
"The EVlink DC Quick Charger is currently CHAdeMO-compliant and will incorporate the SAE J1772™ combo-coupler when the standard is finalized and released."

So at the end of the day it's likely that most DC faster chargers will support both CHAdeMO and SAE combo

[markrmarkr]

I don't agree. No current production car uses Combo, so no car in Australia will for years to come.

What your proposing will make something which is already expensive, even more expensive. And the combo part wont even be used. It's a waste of money. It will slow down the rate of uptake of Chademo, which is a very bad thing.

[gabzimiev]

i disagree the BMW i3 is due for release in Australia in 2014, the last thing you want to do is cut out the rich BMW market.

[Feng]

Doesn't the i3 use SAE combo? It'll be interesting to see if BMW is going to invest in any combo chargers here.

Will Nissan do anything to counter the i3 here?

[markrmarkr]

I'd be very surprised if you will see anything from BMW next year, but even if you did, It'll be in real small numbers. I imagine anyone in Australia who went BMW, and wanted to travel long distances, would get the range extender. Not rely on a nonexistant ChargeNow network. Incidentally ChargeNow hasn't even launched in the UK yet.

But lets get back to the point. There are no Combo cars in Australia so promoting Combo is silly, as no-one will be using it for quite some time at best.

At the same time it takes attention away from Chademo, which is what we are crying out for.

Have you used Chademo with your i-Miev Gabriel? If not, you should. It's an eye opener. It makes the Leaf an intercity car. I imagine the i-Miev with it's smaller battery - even more so.

[gabzimiev]

from what I've observed from price indicators the cost of a CHAdeMO only dc charger to a CHAdeMO and SAE Comobo charger is only $3-5k, (see the e-station site only $5k more for both leads) mainly because the same transformer can be used and the only real extra hardware required is for handshaking and comms with the car.

so if your giving a recommendation to business about what is going to be future proof, as at the cost of a DC fast charger it's a 10 year investment. you recommend a charger that supports both CHAdeMO and SAE combo surely ?

Veefil, Schindler, ABB, Eaton, circontrol all are working on or have dual plug chargers.

leaving Aironviroment being the only company lagging

So the only detraction in the recommendation is a company may wait until a new model charger is available with both plugs.

[Feng]

One day some clever cookie is going to hack the ports to the LEAF to house a SAE combo socket. Looks like it'll be a tight squeeze though.

[markrmarkr]

Gab,
Ok lets look at the economics.

If the Chademo/Combo version is 10% more expensive that may be enough to make the difference between providing something and providing nothing. It may be the tipping point.

or It's the difference between getting 10 and 11 Charging stations.

This is all good, but the real question is where is the return on investment coming from (over 10 years)? At least for the next few it's all Chademo. Leaf and i-Miev are the only players.

Even if BMW and some others start providing something they wont be there till towards the end of those 10 years, because Leaf/i-Miev have such a big lead, it's much more than 10 to 1, ie The proprietor of the 10th charging station (whether it's at Mittagong or Burke) will make money from Leafs and i-Mievs that stop to charge, but not from i3's.

[gabzimiev]

actually on economics it's really really hard to justify a Quick charger at all. just to recoup cost of electricity you would have to charge $10 a charge (16kwh is $5.66 at .35c and $10.56 at 66c peak rate and a $1.50 a day service charge) . so to start paying off capital cost you need to charge closer to $20 a charge. the only economic sense is when you install one to service your own fleet.
I was in two minds on if it was worth mentioning them at all as it's more like to scare someone off.

it also looks like there is a fairly large cost of installation $10k has already been quoted at Uni of WA. no only do you need to provide 3 phase power of nearly 100Amps but you also have civil works in the concrete base for the quick charger. 7 sites where rejected by ausgrid when selecting sites for smart city smart grid because of high site install costs.
1. Morisset Commuter Car Park
2. Coogee Beach, Randwick Council
3. Berowra RailCorp Commuter Car Park
4. Ourimbah RailCorp Commuter Car Park
5. Ourimbah TAFE
6. F3 Caltex Service Station Northbound
7. F3 Caltex Service Station Southbound.
no real details are in the report on why these sites cost so much but it would of been a mix of civil costs and the potential need to upgrade power supply to site.

So the site selection may induce a cost fluctuation of $2k-$15k .

Maybe a separate document for quick chargers so the ideas and cost can be explored more.

[markrmarkr]

I think you have to assume the customer is spending money on something else while the car is charging too.

Another issue is we seem to be fixated with the most extreme forms of fast charge. I'd imagine most of us would be more than happy to spend 50min on a 20KW system (instead of 30 on a 50KW system) for that 80% charge, if it was that or nothing. I've even heard of a portable (but not in the boot of my Leaf) 20KW charger. That should reduce the infrastructure costs considerably.

So they Knocked back 7. Where are the ones they decided on?