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Post by philcanberra on Mar 14, 2016 9:55:55 GMT 11
Hi all,
I lost my 2nd capacity bar 2 weeks ago at 49025km with 77.35% capacity showing on the LEAF spy app. We are down to about 60-80km on a 100% charge now. We only have a car spot at our block of units with no shade. Although yesterday I managed to get 65km and still had 2 bars remaining. My battery capacity is now around 16.1kwh, DOWN from the 23.2kwh it used to hold when new. So that's 7.1kwh (47km) loss or a 30.6% capacity loss. The loss in range is very noticeable, to the point I would never recommend a LEAF to anyone. The next electric car I get will have liquid cooling, if there's no liquid cooling then it's a bad electric car design in my eyes. My friends in Mitsubishi imievs still get over 100km from a charge. I only ever got 120-130km when new. The LEAF is a very very nice car but they stuffed up the battery design. If they looked after it better, it would survive better.
Phillip
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Post by Feng on Mar 14, 2016 10:57:00 GMT 11
Sorry to hear that Phil, you were very enthusiastic about it at the start and I used to be impressed by how well your capacity was holding up in the Canberra cold. Are there any other factors which could be causing your reduced range? 60-80km sounds pretty bad for two bars.
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Post by jcan on Mar 14, 2016 16:04:55 GMT 11
I unfortunately lost my first bar today too at pretty much 11,000km I think the age of the battery has a lot to do with the loss of capacity...Leaf spy looks like everything is normal, no bad cells... just age I guess. Does anyone know the actual warranty on the traction battery? Is it 5 years 80% capacity??
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Post by Feng on Mar 14, 2016 16:18:10 GMT 11
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Post by jcan on Mar 14, 2016 16:51:48 GMT 11
Thanks for that Feng, I thought I had seen something like that... I've had my leaf for a little over 6 months now... no sticker has been sent though.
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Post by jacky on Mar 14, 2016 17:37:31 GMT 11
Sorry to hear that Phillip. iMiEV also use forced air cooling except that it will circulate conditioned air if the battery temperature is over 30 degree. Source: media.mitsubishicars.com/releases/dc8be352-eeff-4d6b-a6e0-e62dec3a22fbExtract from the link: That means it will make a difference only if the car was charged at battery temperature 30 degree or above (not the air temperature due to the high heat capacity). From the battery temperature gauge, it is difficult to tell if it is over 30 degree ( www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery#Battery_Temperature_Gauge). If you have LEAF spy then it will be easier for you to tell if you are frequently charging with over 30 degree battery temperature and thus to see if you are better with an iMiEV.
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Post by lesmando24 on Mar 14, 2016 18:41:09 GMT 11
I think it is 66.25%, as you have to loose the 8th bar to claim warranty (15 + 6.25 + 6.25 + 6.25). les
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Post by rusdy on Mar 14, 2016 18:59:39 GMT 11
... The LEAF is a very very nice car but they stuffed up the battery design. ... I hear you. Although, back then, their engineers knew no better that LMO (Lithium-Manganese-Oxide) without proper 'secret sauce' perform very poorly in heat. Either that, or they underestimated the LMO disadvantage in heat. I'm sure any newer LEAF no longer has this problem. This is only applicable to 2011-2012 LEAF. So, I wouldn't go as far as not recommending Leaf to new buyers (second hand buyers do be aware tho'). I do believe liquid cooling is unnecessary if they get the right battery chemistry (why add the cost?). For example, my NMC (Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt) batteries in my electric bike has survived without much degradation although it's fully charged to 100% (real 100% (at 4.2 Volt per cell), not the whimpy 90% in Leaf (4.1 Volt)) and stored in my shed (fully charged) in summer (perth summer that is, in excess 50C inside the shed). Anyway, I'm surprised your Leaf hasn't fared much better than mine in the heat of Perth. Here is my history (mine at 26kk today): Not sure why the inconsistencies in SOH (as per my post previously in this thread). I'm hoping there is some stuff-up in Leaf's SOH calculation (under-reporting that is).
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Post by Feng on Mar 14, 2016 19:37:28 GMT 11
I think it is 66.25%, as you have to loose the 8th bar to claim warranty (15 + 6.25 + 6.25 + 6.25). You're right and I've fallen victim to the fencepost error. Oops!
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Post by rusdy on Mar 14, 2016 19:46:05 GMT 11
I think it is 66.25%, as you have to loose the 8th bar to claim warranty (15 + 6.25 + 6.25 + 6.25). You're right and I've fallen victim to the fencepost error. Oops! That is DOH! The warranty is not that good then
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Post by EVangelist on Mar 14, 2016 20:31:05 GMT 11
I unfortunately lost my first bar today too at pretty much 11,000km I think the age of the battery has a lot to do with the loss of capacity...Leaf spy looks like everything is normal, no bad cells... just age I guess. Pretty much exactly what happened to me - first bar lost at 11000km about a month ago. Given the number of "first bar loss" reports in this forum coming in a cluster, it certainly seems that age is a pretty significant factor.
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Post by mike on Mar 14, 2016 23:56:40 GMT 11
On Friday, I took my leaf with 2 missing bars into Northside Nissan Perth for it's 30,000 km service. They said the control model was reprogrammed as per of a recall. After first full charge, indicated range in increase from 120 to 135 km and real range appears to be around 105km compared to 95km before. Leaf Spy SOH was 76% before and jumped to 84% after, but no returned bars. Will be interesting to see if to extra 10km of range stays around after a few charge/discharge cycles or if a battery bar reappears.
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Post by rusdy on Mar 15, 2016 12:16:26 GMT 11
On Friday, I took my leaf with 2 missing bars into Northside Nissan Perth for it's 30,000 km service. They said the control model was reprogrammed as per of a recall. After first full charge, indicated range in increase from 120 to 135 km and real range appears to be around 105km compared to 95km before. Leaf Spy SOH was 76% before and jumped to 84% after, but no returned bars. Will be interesting to see if to extra 10km of range stays around after a few charge/discharge cycles or if a battery bar reappears. That's good news! As I suspected, their SOH calculation is not that good. I've read somewhere (lost the link) there is no way they can get accurate SOH reading (since Leaf's SOH calculation is based on theoritical model). Non-returned bar is strange indeed. One must cycle the battery from 100% to low battery threshold to find the actual SOH.
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Post by empowerrepower on Mar 15, 2016 23:35:18 GMT 11
I unfortunately lost my first bar today too at pretty much 11,000km I think the age of the battery has a lot to do with the loss of capacity...Leaf spy looks like everything is normal, no bad cells... just age I guess. Pretty much exactly what happened to me - first bar lost at 11000km about a month ago. Given the number of "first bar loss" reports in this forum coming in a cluster, it certainly seems that age is a pretty significant factor. OK, I think I'm part of the cluster too. Last week, on the Leaf's first birthday of ownership, I lost a bar. It keeps coming back after driving a few km each day, but it gave me a sinking feeling to see it drop after one year, at 19 300km. Although I love the Leaf in many ways, I've had less range than I was expecting, having never managed to drive more than 100 km on a charge. I've seen that some people on the list get 120-140km when new. This leaves me a bit concerned about what my range will be as more bars are lost. I usually charge to 100% most days, given that this will give me 95-100 km. Once the low battery light starts flashing 7km left at a maximum of 95 km driven, I get a little nervous.
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Post by datsunleaf on Mar 16, 2016 19:15:00 GMT 11
I have been down to 10 bars for some time now and am lucky to get a range on the GOM of 120 klms fully charged, used to be 160 :-(
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Post by jake on Mar 17, 2016 14:34:52 GMT 11
So if we think that age is a bigger factor in the gen 1 batteries then we think, perhaps it is due to the ageing of the electrolyte? What could cause age related battery deterioation if the battery is not mistreated?
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Post by hieronymous on Mar 17, 2016 15:41:24 GMT 11
For ALL lithium-ion batteries it is cell oxidation, both naturally over time, and from use.
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Post by stewartm on Mar 18, 2016 9:01:26 GMT 11
I was talking with a Brisbane new LEAF owner yesterday. She is very very disappointed. Given that she travels a lot of suburban area and the dealer promised her a 'comfortable' 170km per fill. She is devastated that after 90-100km she is at low battery, and then goes home and cant go out and visit friends because the Nissan charger (told that was all she needed), takes 6-7 hours to top it up. Further that after a few months the only thing the dealer would do is buy it back at $14,000 under what she paid for it. Not the way to do business people, start being honest...
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Post by EVangelist on Mar 18, 2016 9:40:43 GMT 11
I was talking with a Brisbane new LEAF owner yesterday. She is very very disappointed. Given that she travels a lot of suburban area and the dealer promised her a 'comfortable' 170km per fill. She is devastated that after 90-100km she is at low battery, and then goes home and cant go out and visit friends because the Nissan charger (told that was all she needed), takes 6-7 hours to top it up. Further that after a few months the only thing the dealer would do is buy it back at $14,000 under what she paid for it. Not the way to do business people, start being honest... Yes that is disappointing - I did my research before buying so had a fair idea of what was real and what was fantasy, but to tell someone the Leaf proivdes a comfortable 170k per fill is just misleading. When brand new, 100% charged, and under ideal ECO driving conditions, maybe, but not "comfortable". When I first bought my Leaf, 100% charge on Eco would give a GOM indication of just on 170 km. Nearly 18 months down the track, I could probably get 140-150k ECO with 100% charge and careful driving on flat terrain. Curious though - does this person charge at the end of every day? If I knew I was going to do 150km every single day I would not have bought a Leaf. But even someone doing 100k per day should be OK with daily charging, and 100k per day is a LOT of driving.
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Post by jake on Mar 18, 2016 11:05:46 GMT 11
I was talking with a Brisbane new LEAF owner yesterday. She is very very disappointed. Given that she travels a lot of suburban area and the dealer promised her a 'comfortable' 170km per fill. She is devastated that after 90-100km she is at low battery, and then goes home and cant go out and visit friends because the Nissan charger (told that was all she needed), takes 6-7 hours to top it up. Further that after a few months the only thing the dealer would do is buy it back at $14,000 under what she paid for it. Not the way to do business people, start being honest... Yes that is disappointing - I did my research before buying so had a fair idea of what was real and what was fantasy, but to tell someone the Leaf proivdes a comfortable 170k per fill is just misleading. When brand new, 100% charged, and under ideal ECO driving conditions, maybe, but not "comfortable". When I first bought my Leaf, 100% charge on Eco would give a GOM indication of just on 170 km. Nearly 18 months down the track, I could probably get 140-150k ECO with 100% charge and careful driving on flat terrain. Curious though - does this person charge at the end of every day? If I knew I was going to do 150km every single day I would not have bought a Leaf. But even someone doing 100k per day should be OK with daily charging, and 100k per day is a LOT of driving. I think buying a charger is very worth while if you need to use the car again at night. I often have to go out again at night, and this was touch and go with the one that came with the car, but with the quicker charging of my Clipper Creek, I can easily do it. Promising 170k is probably just ignorance on the dealer's part but still shouldn't have happened. I too can only get 150k with careful city driving on ECO.
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Post by jake on Mar 18, 2016 13:40:42 GMT 11
Hi all, I lost my 2nd capacity bar 2 weeks ago at 49025km with 77.35% capacity showing on the LEAF spy app. We are down to about 60-80km on a 100% charge now. We only have a car spot at our block of units with no shade. Although yesterday I managed to get 65km and still had 2 bars remaining. My battery capacity is now around 16.1kwh, DOWN from the 23.2kwh it used to hold when new. So that's 7.1kwh (47km) loss or a 30.6% capacity loss. The loss in range is very noticeable, to the point I would never recommend a LEAF to anyone. The next electric car I get will have liquid cooling, if there's no liquid cooling then it's a bad electric car design in my eyes. My friends in Mitsubishi imievs still get over 100km from a charge. I only ever got 120-130km when new. The LEAF is a very very nice car but they stuffed up the battery design. If they looked after it better, it would survive better. Phillip Yes I think they should have adopted the IMIEV battery cooling which uses the air-conditioning on the car to cool the battery when needed. Still with the new battery chemistry the cooling shouldn't be needed. Time will tell. The good thing about the current system is it is cheap and simple, and simplicity means less things to go wrong.
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Post by lesmando24 on Mar 23, 2016 18:34:06 GMT 11
I am still getting 120km from a 100% charge after 98,000km. It is mostly 60km/h zones, with short mixes of 100km/h and 80km/h zones, and a return trip over the Gateway bridge. Attachment Deleted
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Post by jake on Mar 23, 2016 20:10:15 GMT 11
I am still getting 120km from a 100% charge after 98,000km. It is mostly 60km/h zones, with short mixes of 100km/h and 80km/h zones, and a return trip over the Gateway bridge. View AttachmentThat's excellent! I hope my Leaf will still be going strong at 100,000k
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Post by EVangelist on Mar 23, 2016 23:04:52 GMT 11
I am still getting 120km from a 100% charge after 98,000km. It is mostly 60km/h zones, with short mixes of 100km/h and 80km/h zones, and a return trip over the Gateway bridge. That is very, very good. Your energy economy is very good too. Today our energy economy (as displayed on the dash) edged down from 0.13 to 0.12 for about the first time ever.
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2016 20:06:16 GMT 11
Was getting 80km now get 106-118 km from RR (GOM) on Imiev
Paceway Mitsubishi recalibrated the battery
This is an e-tuneup.
Car feels zippier, back to original. Was sluggish when range was at 80km. Perhaps things get dumbed down when battery capacity is reduced.
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Post by jeffjl on Mar 26, 2016 22:44:00 GMT 11
I am still getting 120km from a 100% charge after 98,000km. It is mostly 60km/h zones, with short mixes of 100km/h and 80km/h zones, and a return trip over the Gateway bridge. I'm not ballsy enough to take it that low.
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Post by jeffjl on Mar 26, 2016 22:45:04 GMT 11
I am still getting 120km from a 100% charge after 98,000km. It is mostly 60km/h zones, with short mixes of 100km/h and 80km/h zones, and a return trip over the Gateway bridge. That is very, very good. Your energy economy is very good too. Today our energy economy (as displayed on the dash) edged down from 0.13 to 0.12 for about the first time ever. Do you use the cruse control much? I stopped using it and my economy increased significantly.
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Post by jcan on Mar 27, 2016 7:31:04 GMT 11
I wonder the same thing with cruise control. I always try to use it with the thinking it's more efficient. My wife never uses cruise control and a common trip we both do, she will come back saying she only used one bar where I would use two. To be fair I say that when I travel that trip, I'll have the whole family in the car where she would not, so what we're seeing is the difference in weight. Using the car without cruise control and two bodies on this trip will get maybe another 5 km more than with cruise control and 4 bodies in the car....food for thought.
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Post by lesmando24 on Mar 27, 2016 10:23:55 GMT 11
I usually use cruise control on the freeway. But that is not very much anyway. The economy meter drops when I turn it on, sometimes by a lot.
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Post by jake on Mar 28, 2016 19:11:47 GMT 11
I have always felt that the cruise control isn't economical on the freeway at high speeds. I have tried it at low speeds, like a long road with a 40k zone and no traffic. In this case it is good, however on the freeway you would naturally slow down a little when you encounter a hill, where the cruise control will use a lot of power to keep you at speed.
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