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Post by gabzimiev on Mar 7, 2015 15:37:12 GMT 11
Unless you meter every charge you can only guess at your overall efficiency. Les was metering every charge with a separate power meter. some of the more advanced EVSE have meters built in. also how we came to work out it was more efficient to charge at 3.3kW compared to 2.4 kW using the mobile EVSE.
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Post by hieronymous on Mar 7, 2015 15:41:45 GMT 11
Unless you meter every charge you can only guess at your overall efficiency. Les was metering every charge with a separate power meter. some of the more advanced EVSE have meters built in. also how we came to work out it was more efficient to charge at 3.3kW compared to 2.4 kW using the mobile EVSE. And our American friends on MNL have found that 240 volt charging is more efficient than 110 volt charging, which is about 75% from memory.
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Post by EVangelist on Mar 7, 2015 15:42:56 GMT 11
Thanks to the onboard telemetry, I know our lifetime driving efficiency is 0.142 kW/km. Actually, you don't know this at all. If you calculate efficiency for a conventional car, you use the petrol station receipt for your consumption, not the gauge on the car dash. To calculate efficiency for a Leaf you need to measure what is coming out of the wall. This is interesting and complicated, as it is not linear. At 80%/100% charging I was getting in the car a 90% average of what I was taking from the wall. At 40% charging I am getting 125% in the car of what I am taking from the wall. Unless you meter every charge you can only guess at your overall efficiency. Losses from wall to battery charge are not relevant in this context. 0.142 kWh/km is based on the Carwings telemetry data, the kWh being the actual energy stored in the battery or regen'd.
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Post by leighf on Mar 7, 2015 19:05:27 GMT 11
Hi Kris,
That is a worry after such a short time. I get my new Leaf in 3 days, and apprehension about the battery life has been my main concern for what is a great car in many ways. I think that Nissan could be offering better warranties if they really want the Leaf to be a success, something better than the 3+ bars down capacity warranty, although the move to 5 years was an improvement. Bugger indeed!
I don't think it's so much the age as the distance, which relates to number of recharges. For example, we just lost our first bar after almost 3 years and 23k. It's 1 bar of 12 so no real need to panic here. They say if it drops more than 4 bars in the first 5 years then it's a warranty issue, otherwise it's normal wear and tear. This isn't unexpected and completely normal. The hope is that by the time any of us need a replacement they will be so cheap it's a non issue. Plus we have the fantastic option of putting the old LEAF battery in the garage to power the house! It's all good. If you want another data point, I've had my LEAF for nearly 3 years and have done 56k. My commute is about 70km 6 days a week. The car gets charged to 80% every night. According to LEAF Spy I've had 2245 charges. The battery State of Health is at 87%. I believe the first bar goes when the battery SOH hits 85%. I think the range at 80% for me is about 95-100 km but Melbourne is fairly hilly (and typically not very hot). Leigh
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Post by hieronymous on Mar 7, 2015 20:28:51 GMT 11
I don't think it's so much the age as the distance, which relates to number of recharges. For example, we just lost our first bar after almost 3 years and 23k. It's 1 bar of 12 so no real need to panic here. They say if it drops more than 4 bars in the first 5 years then it's a warranty issue, otherwise it's normal wear and tear. This isn't unexpected and completely normal. The hope is that by the time any of us need a replacement they will be so cheap it's a non issue. Plus we have the fantastic option of putting the old LEAF battery in the garage to power the house! It's all good. If you want another data point, I've had my LEAF for nearly 3 years and have done 56k. My commute is about 70km 6 days a week. The car gets charged to 80% every night. According to LEAF Spy I've had 2245 charges. Leigh The Leaf Spy reporting of L1 / L2 charging is as follows: The number increases by one when you plug the charge cable in for a manual charge. If you plug in for a timed charge, the number increases by one when you plug in, and then increases by one more when the delayed charging starts i.e. increases by two. I expect you use the timer all the time so your real number of charges will be about half of 2245. This fits with how long you have had the car - nearly 1100 days.
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Post by quaternary on Mar 13, 2015 10:12:20 GMT 11
Very nice graph. Thanks for sharing. Certainly the GOM is a much disparaged indicator of range! With regards your comment: "the GOM should be much better than that" - well if it was better than it is, then it wouldn't be called a GOM (guess-o-meter) - it'd be called something like a URI (useful-range-indicator). But alas, it's not a URI, and so we're stuck with the guessing-GOM! By the way, I see how you get the GOM value on the x-axis, but how do you determine the actual distance covered? Ie, what's your end point of the trip? Eg, low battery warning? Hi quaternary, It's pretty simple. When I plug in to recharge at night, I reset the tripmeter to 0. Then in the morning, at the completion of recharge I record the GOM value (around 120 km at 80% charge). Then, at the end of most trips I record the value on the tripmeter and the value of the GOM. I keep doing that until the next recharge - I don't need to wait for a specific end point such as low battery. I typically get 3 or 4 data points before the next charge. An actual example - the GOM reads 120 km after recharge, and at the end of my first trip I travelled 15.1 km but the GOM now reads 90. GOM has gone down by 30 km but I only actually travelled 15.1km. (30,15.1) is my first data point on the graph. The next trip, the tripmeter is up to 32.6 km, and the GOM now reads 71. I have now travelled 32.6 km but the GOM has gone down by 49 km. (49,32.6) is my next data point. (91,68.6) is the data point after that. And so on. Next recharge, I start again. By getting a range of values from both short and long trips, I get the graph above. I've only collected 2 weeks of data so far. Hi EVangelist, Thanks for that. That makes sense. A couple of weeks ago I had my longest road trip to date - a 115 km round trip on the open road, although I stayed at 90 km/h (84 km/h by the GPS). A gentle rise on the way out of 177 metres, and the fall on the way back. Here's a graph of my energy expenditure. On the way out efficiency was 0.18kWh/km, and on the way back 0.15kWh/km, calculated from LeafStat data and odometer, not the dash display. On the way back, all the factors were on my side - mild drop in elevation, slight tail wind, and two fewer passengers, which presumably all contributed to my better efficiency. Anyway, I also collected some GOM data as follows. I zeroed the odometer, and every 5 GIDs I noted down the GOM (on Eco, no A/C), odometer, and GIDs. This was during a time of fairly constant running at 90km/h on the cruise control, although punctuated by the odd small town I had to slow down while passing through. So, for example, my first data point was at 85 GIDs, 0 km travelled (just zeroed the odometer), and the GOM showed 33km, which is represented by the bottom right dot on the graph below. The thing that surprised me about this, was contrary to all my experience to date, which has involved around town driving, the GOM was actually being conservative! The gradient on the graph is 1.1, which means for every 10km of GOM, I was actually travelling 11km in range. So while the GOM in my experience is generally widely optimistic around town, it was slightly conservative on the open road. Who knows why that is, would have to know more about the underlying algorithm, but it's an interesting observation nevertheless. It will be interesting to see if I can repeat this on a different day under different environmental conditions. Now I plotted a third graph with GOM and energy (in GIDs) on the same graph. From this can determine the energy remaining at the nominal GOM zero point (not that you ever get to GOM = 0, because it blanks out at the VLBW). So, looking at the rough green arrows I drew on, GOM would be zero at around 35.6km in range, which corresponds to about 17.5 GIDs. If 4 GIDs is the accepted end-point/turtle mode, that would occur at 42.7km (indicated by the black arrows - and if the GOM was still reading, it would be saying about -6.4km). So that's to say, for my trip on the open road, under my particular set of environmental circumstances, load, etc, etc, etc, while the GOM is tracking the actual distance conservatively, and to within 10%, there's an additional "safety margin" of 7.1km (the difference between 35.6 km and 42.7 km). So, when I started collected the GOM data, the GOM was reading 33km, when actually I could have presumably driven more like 43km (33 x 1.1 + 7.1).
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Post by leighf on Mar 15, 2015 22:18:19 GMT 11
If you want another data point, I've had my LEAF for nearly 3 years and have done 56k. My commute is about 70km 6 days a week. The car gets charged to 80% every night. According to LEAF Spy I've had 2245 charges. Leigh The Leaf Spy reporting of L1 / L2 charging is as follows: The number increases by one when you plug the charge cable in for a manual charge. If you plug in for a timed charge, the number increases by one when you plug in, and then increases by one more when the delayed charging starts i.e. increases by two. I expect you use the timer all the time so your real number of charges will be about half of 2245. This fits with how long you have had the car - nearly 1100 days. Thanks, that makes more sense! Leigh
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Post by EVangelist on Mar 19, 2015 13:40:37 GMT 11
A couple of weeks ago I had my longest road trip to date - a 115 km round trip on the open road, although I stayed at 90 km/h (84 km/h by the GPS). A gentle rise on the way out of 177 metres, and the fall on the way back... Wow, some interesting stats there! Efficiency of 0.15 kWh/km is a bit less than I would expect if you are going (slightly) downhill and getting some regen, but it seems going above 80 km/h starts to exponentially increase battery use. We get 0.14 kWh/km just with city running, but that is supported by very good regen, nearly 40%.
What surprises me about the GOM is that Nissan could collect and analyse worldwide GOM data in Carwings to build a better algorithm based on actual driving and range data, but I don't think the GOM values are actually sent to Carwings. The back of the user manual lists all of the data sent (it's a surprisingly long list), I'll have to check it again to see if GOM is there.
And while I can appreciate the psychology in generally having more range left than what the GOM indicates (e.g., even at VLBW, you can probably still drive another 20-30 km) I think it would be better to strive for accuracy. If we could have faith in the GOM readings, it would help build, rather than erode, confidence.
The longest round trip I have done is only 56 km, going from Sydney's inner west to Beecroft and back, which is almost up hill the whole way, via the M1/M2. It was also the only time I've ever taken the Leaf over 100 km/h. Result - the GOM was absolutely smashed. For the 31 km trip out, the GOM dropped from 85 to 37, i.e. 48 km. I was actually a bit nervous about getting back. I focussed on regen a lot on the downhills coming home, and also took a shorter but slower route. In the end it wasn't even close, the GOM showed 19 km when I got back, dropping 18 km on a 25 km trip with substantial amounts of downhill regen. All up - 56 km trip in Eco, but the GOM went down by 66 km.
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Post by EVangelist on Mar 20, 2015 10:35:52 GMT 11
OK, I looked at the Owners Manual (Vehicle Information System) and on page 5-6 and 5-7 it lists the 62 data items collected when you opt-in to Carwings. And not one of them is the GOM reading! Given everything else they collect, GOM is a very odd omission. Bizarre stuff that is collected includes things like "start time and elapsed time of excessive air conditioning use" and "monthly usage of parking and reverse". Uh huh.
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johng
EV Tyre Kicker
Posts: 1
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Post by johng on May 7, 2015 10:35:55 GMT 11
I did a similar test, you can find it here: youtu.be/qGy2NHEw090I started out with 99% battery and a range of 121 miles (I'm in the U.S.) completed 120.7 miles, about 190km, but it would have done the 121 miles, it was "all dashes" on the display but not yet in turtle mode.
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Post by jeffjl on May 7, 2015 15:55:23 GMT 11
I did a similar test, you can find it here: youtu.be/qGy2NHEw090I started out with 99% battery and a range of 121 miles (I'm in the U.S.) completed 120.7 miles, about 190km, but it would have done the 121 miles, it was "all dashes" on the display but not yet in turtle mode. What year model was the John? In Australia we are still getting the 2012 model. Still 120.7 miles is very impressive.
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rrrosco
EV Tyre Kicker
Posts: 7
LEAF OWNER?: Yes
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Post by rrrosco on Jun 11, 2015 21:06:27 GMT 11
OK, not quite to the specified test but close - and very frustrating nevertheless.
My LEAF is exactly 12 months old. Has 8900 km on the clock.
Tuesday night I charged at home to 80%. Next morning the guessometer said I had 105km range available. (Hmmm - 80% of 170km should be about 135km).
Set trip meter to zero, drove to work (about 10km), quick trip to shops at lunchtime, drove home again. According to trip meter I had driven 24.2km - about what I would expect. All driving in eco mode, no a/c but did have wipers on (quite dull and wet) and I presume lights because it was a dull day.
Guessometer said I had 19km range left.
WTF?
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Post by hieronymous on Jun 11, 2015 22:03:56 GMT 11
Forget 170 km, in town more like 125 km so 95-100 km from an 80% charge is typical in good conditions. On a wet winter's day much less. Your GOM number to start with is always based on your previous driving. Did you really boot it at lunchtime?
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rrrosco
EV Tyre Kicker
Posts: 7
LEAF OWNER?: Yes
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Post by rrrosco on Jun 11, 2015 22:26:58 GMT 11
Very sedate trip of 2k each way at lunchtime (in traffic).
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Post by Feng on Jun 11, 2015 22:44:11 GMT 11
Hi rrrosco, wow, 19km after 24.2 km sounds really extreme. Is your drive home very uphill? That might skew the GOM. Do you remember how many battery bars remained when you got home?
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Post by antigas on Feb 8, 2016 15:29:24 GMT 11
Lost my first bar at 9600k's. Not sure if that's good or bad. I'm almost hoping I lose more quickly so I can use the warranty....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2016 17:44:17 GMT 11
Go racing and fast charge where possible All that concern is hidden from Imiev users until one day you find out that you have 80km range
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Post by jacky on Feb 8, 2016 18:34:20 GMT 11
Lost my first bar at 9600k's. Not sure if that's good or bad. I'm almost hoping I lose more quickly so I can use the warranty.... That's too early to loss a bar. Mine did almost 30,000 km and still have 12 bars. I owned mine since 9/2014. How "old" is yours?
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Post by antigas on Feb 9, 2016 9:00:28 GMT 11
Lost my first bar at 9600k's. Not sure if that's good or bad. I'm almost hoping I lose more quickly so I can use the warranty.... That's too early to loss a bar. Mine did almost 30,000 km and still have 12 bars. I owned mine since 9/2014. How "old" is yours? Bought late January 2015 'new' from Mooroka Nissan. Not sure who or where I should start chasing this up? It does seem early compared to what other people have reported.
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Post by jake on Feb 9, 2016 11:54:10 GMT 11
That's too early to loss a bar. Mine did almost 30,000 km and still have 12 bars. I owned mine since 9/2014. How "old" is yours? Bought late January 2015 'new' from Mooroka Nissan. Not sure who or where I should start chasing this up? It does seem early compared to what other people have reported. 9000 km is very early to lose a bar. The average is 20,000 km and in Australia, cars are doing much better than that like Jacky said ( ( (Probably because of our better climate) Unfortunately, you would have to lose a lot more bars to be covered under warranty, however bad cells can be repaired (but not easily as it requires special equipment and a battery removal). Your Nissan Leaf specialist dealer is your first stop. Ask them how much to repair the battery. In some instances in America, Nissan has repaired batteries with early cell failure for free, but I wouldn't be too hopeful of that happening here. Anyway your Nissan dealer can tell you what is going on with the battery or you can see for yourself if you use Leaf spy and connect an OBDI device to the port inside the car.
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Post by jacky on Feb 9, 2016 21:43:37 GMT 11
Without much hope, I would start the conversation with Nissan LEAF specialist. I would call them instead of email. I found that they didn't reply emails recently.
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Post by EVangelist on Feb 10, 2016 12:45:26 GMT 11
Lost my first bar at 9600k's. Not sure if that's good or bad. I'm almost hoping I lose more quickly so I can use the warranty.... That's too early to loss a bar. Mine did almost 30,000 km and still have 12 bars. I owned mine since 9/2014. How "old" is yours? I noticed just this morning that I have lost my first bar! We have done 11,200 km. Car was purchased in 10/2014. Interestingly, I only noticed it because the car was charged overnight to 80% (as usual) and the charge bar was only one bar less than the battery capacity status bar, whereas normally it shows as 2-3 bars below. However the 80% range reported by the GOM was no different to usual - around 120km. Does balancing the cells at service time help? I'm not particularly thrown by this, it was going to happen at some point.
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Post by caskings on Feb 10, 2016 15:05:23 GMT 11
The cells are automatically balanced any time you charge to 100 percent. I don't think the nissan service schedule has any special battery balancing in it.
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Post by Feng on Feb 10, 2016 15:27:26 GMT 11
I read on the MNL forum it's done within four hours after reaching 100% so it might help to leave it plugged in for a few hours once in a while after a full charge. Haven't seen it stop and start again after a full charge though, maybe my cells aren't imbalanced enough for that to happen.
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Post by hieronymous on Feb 10, 2016 15:38:26 GMT 11
I would expect all our gen 1 Leafs to have lost a charge bar by the end of this year - they will all be 4 years old from manufacture. The Leaf data from the States shows that, apart from the very hot climate Leafs, the leading indicator of degradation is calendar age, followed by charging history. The odo reading has some direct relationship to the charging history but not to the calendar age.
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Post by Phoebe on Feb 10, 2016 15:49:57 GMT 11
We'll see. Mine will be a good measure as I have travelled less distance and always charge to 100% on my 15amp power point - but that's only once every 3 or 4 weeks. Had it since Nov. 2012.
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Post by EVangelist on Feb 11, 2016 12:26:59 GMT 11
Thanks caskings and Feng - I'll charge to 100% this weekend (haven't done it for a while) and see if it makes any difference. Since the bar has just been lost, maybe it will make a brief reappearance
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2016 20:58:38 GMT 11
Note that phoebe charges at 10 amps if I am not wrong? The Esve that comes with Imiev n leaf is 10 amps but has 15 amp socket
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Post by Phoebe on Feb 11, 2016 22:10:41 GMT 11
Note that phoebe charges at 10 amps if I am not wrong? The Esve that comes with Imiev n leaf is 10 amps but has 15 amp socket Yes, that is right. Nissan insisted I get a 15 amp power point which is a good idea. I have charged on a 10 amp connection, with an adaptor, for a short time but the cable gets quite hot. Don't want to burn my house down so glad I've got the 15 amp connection for regular charging.
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Post by southernvolt on Feb 12, 2016 7:42:58 GMT 11
Thanks caskings and Feng - I'll charge to 100% this weekend (haven't done it for a while) and see if it makes any difference. Since the bar has just been lost, maybe it will make a brief reappearance Maybe try a DC fast charge if you can. I remember reading somewhere that using a Chademo and charging to 100% every so often was good for the battery. Since we're driving mobile laptop batteries it's also served me well to keep the electrons moving. Storing batteries at high charge, keeping it only charged to a lower level and things like that have historically been bad for other rechargeable devices. I don't really follow any set routine but rather keep up the variety: charge to 80% a couple of times a week, 100% other times and try to "blast" it with a Chademo charge every so often. When I charge at home to 100% it stays on the charger the rest of the night so balances itself a few times a week if it needs to. I'm on 38,000 km's and no bar lost yet.
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