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Post by Jim Hare on May 29, 2013 19:02:27 GMT 11
Okay LEAFies, this range question is doing my head in so I propose we do an unofficial experiment and see if we can come up with anything. Here's what I'd like everyone to do: 1. Charge the LEAF to 100% 2. Reset the trip odometer to 0 3. Drive in eco mode until the guess-o-meter gets pretty low 4. Log how many KMs you went, how many the LEAF thinks you can still go, and something about the terrain/driving conditions. We just had our worst range cycle by far. Hopefully just a fluke, I'll log a few more and see. Here's my first entry: 1. Drove 96KM with 11KMs remaining 2. 2-4 passengers, hilly terrain, many extremely short trips, mainly day, no A/C
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Post by Brian on May 30, 2013 0:35:28 GMT 11
I, too, would be worried by those stats, Jim. I am sure we would do better than that on our normal 80% charge. Will try and getting a reading to your specs soon, although I tend to be nervous about having low battery at the bottom of the hill, just in case she won't make up the hill. This happened to me with the bike in the early days - she didn't have enough to carry me up the hill, but had enough for herself . . . so I had to ' walk ' her up the hill - not an option with the LEAF Off topic, saw a nice number plate on a U.S. Tesla " 4GET OIL "
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Post by Jim Hare on May 30, 2013 8:53:11 GMT 11
Yeah, I'm used to getting about 120km on 80% and 140-160 on 100%. I think this was just a fluke. Had 4 passengers much of the time, stuff in the boot, lots of short trips etc. I'm going to keep posting results but please please please do the same experiment, even if you don't get it down to 11kms left. Just want to establish a baseline across common experience, not just memory/expectation. Let's see what we are really getting out of our LEAFs.
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Post by Phoebe on May 30, 2013 14:17:59 GMT 11
Jim, I have attached my spreadsheet record of all my charging and useage since January. Only one person in car and no luggage. The trip + Eco Range is the one that will interest you - that Eco Range is after the trip. You will remember that I only had 8 left when I arrived at your place and you can see I had 18 left when I got back home again - same distance, same road, only me and no luggage - so it can vary enormously. Whether it was the head wind on the way there or there appeared more uphill on the way there, I don't know. But I do know all sorts of factors alter the range. However you can see I've never had one anywhere near as bad as your last one. Attachments:
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Post by Jim Hare on May 30, 2013 18:00:00 GMT 11
Thanks Phoebe, great record keeping! Was this always based on charging to 100%? I have a feeling that the steep hills that surround our house in every direction may be having a strong negative effect. Again, I'm hoping this cycle was a fluke as I've never had such appalling milage before. I'll post the next few cycles.
I have noticed that the eco range is wildly optimistic until it's below about 50, where it drops like a rock. Makes it difficult to really know what's going on unless you run it right down.
I notice you've done that a few times and still got great mileage.
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Post by Phoebe on May 31, 2013 9:47:59 GMT 11
Yes, Jim, it is always 100% charge. The Eco range on full charge is estimated on how you drove on the last charge. If I drive very economically on one charge then the Eco Range when I recharge will be higher. But if I don't continue to drive equally economically it soon drops like a stone to be in line with my current driving style. Once it has made that adjustment it then drops at a more regular rate. It doesn't regularly drop like a stone for me at Eco Range of 50 or so. In fact driving to your place, it stayed on 12 for about 10 kms. I guess that was because I had been on the Freeway when the Eco Range started to read 12, but then I left the Freeway and was driving much slower with lots of braking so I didn't lose any more for 10 kms. Obviously I wasn't going slow enough or braking enough during that 10 kms to gain any range. I often arrive in Maitland, 4.5 kms from home, with more range than I leave home because it's quite a lot of downhill, but coming home again I usually lose that and a lot more so that I arrive home with a range of between 10 and 12 kms less than I left with - that is more than the total distance travelled, losing a lot more on the uphill coming home than I gain on the downhill going there. That is a fairly consistent pattern so I guess the change in my driving is fairly consistent over that trip as I never have substantial luggage and never use the aircon.
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Post by duncan on May 31, 2013 11:49:07 GMT 11
Good detail Phoebe!
Jim, I think range tracking is a difficult area because how you choose to drive makes an enormous difference. As you all probably know I am a total hoon, and generally get under 100klm from an 80% charge. But given that I drive about 30klm a day that is no issue, just hoon around and charge it every 3rd day.
The problem is that I can pretty much increase the range by 50-100% more by driving more slowly and using eco mode, turning off ac/heater and not going over 70. On a few occasions I have had to go into range extending brain mode when I haven't planned well enough, and I've always been able to get where I needed to.
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Post by duncan on May 31, 2013 11:54:42 GMT 11
I should add, I have picked up this from the US Leaf forum. It plugs into the car's diagnostic (OBD2) port and shows messages from the car including remaining battery "GIDS". It gives a much better display of remaining charge than the dash because it shows 0-281 actual units rather than 12 blobs like the dash. this particular shot shows it on % mode after an 80% charge...telling me I have lost about 2% of battery capacity in 5000klm, or that the 80% charging threshold isn't super accurate
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Post by Brian on May 31, 2013 21:51:31 GMT 11
Neat unit, Duncan. Agreed that your driving style is evidently dramatically different from Jum's Jim, another factor that might be noted when recording might be temperature, given that we know battery performance degrades with extreme high or low temperatures. So I would suggest that for temperatures we add Moderate ( hopefully most of the time ), Cold ( for you Eastern Staters ) and Hot ( for ' heatwave ' conditions. Phoebe, when you run downhill with a fully ( 100% ) charged battery you don't get any regenerative braking until you have used a bit of battery. This way, the difference will always be greater than if you have used some battery, or only charged to 80% before the descent, when you will get regen.
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Post by Phoebe on Jun 1, 2013 10:16:10 GMT 11
But Brian, I always go downhill first, and that's when I gain range. I lose it coming uphill home again. I always charge to 100% but I only do it every 3 or 4 weeks 'cos I don't go far and I don't hoon Whether I gain range on my first downhill after a charge depends on how I drove on the last charge. If I didn't drive very economically on the last charge then my range on recharge may be as low as 178 and then I gain range on the first downhill because the guessometer reckons it gave me the wrong range for a full charge and ups it as I go downhill. If I was driving very economically on my last charge then my full charge range may be as high as 200 and since I will never get 200 out of a charge it takes sometime before I get more range going downhill and I also loose dollops on the flat because the guessometer is compensating for giving me an unrealistic range on full charge. I hope all this makes sense ;D
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Post by Brian on Jun 1, 2013 20:00:45 GMT 11
Perfectly, Phoebe. Does anyone on the Forum have a guessometer as optimistic ( misleading ? ) as Phoebes ? Ours doesn't know what that first figure '2 ' ( of 3 ) looks like Yes, I understand about the guessometer increasing as you go downhill, but that is because it figures you're getting a free ride. But after a 100% charge and going downhill, watch your ' Regenerometer ' ( coin that word ! ), either above the steering wheel or on the centre console ), and you will see that you are getting nothing to the left / below of the centre / zero point, even when you break hard. Evidently, this is to prevent damage to the batteries ( all 192 cells ) through over-charging.
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Post by duncan on Jun 1, 2013 21:21:03 GMT 11
so, back to the purpose of knowing the actual GIDs in the battery....the US guys have put together a detailed range chart showing the likely remaining miles based on GID, speed and some factors that affect range. They have been closely monitoring these numbers for years, so I think you can be pretty confident about them as opposed to the dash displays. with credit to TonyWilliams from the US forums:
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Post by Brian on Jun 1, 2013 21:41:07 GMT 11
Great stuff - anyone volunteering to convert that to New Money / kilometres ?
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Post by duncan on Jun 1, 2013 21:57:26 GMT 11
Yeah I will get in touch with the author to get a metric version (aren't they metric these days too?), but for the meantime I think it provides some useful data on the critical importance/impact of speed on range, as well as some of the other key factors. In the meantime, x1.6 is close enough for KLM
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Post by Phoebe on Jun 1, 2013 22:12:54 GMT 11
Yes, Brian, Dean assures me you cannot overcharge the batteries, so when I appear to get more range with full batteries I know it is just the guessometer recalculating. Duncan, those figures are far more consistent than the guessometer and they make sense. Most of the time I do the same short trip into Maitland and back, at the same speed, with windows shut, no aircon and no luggage and get about 160 kms out of a charge, no matter how the guessometer plays around in the interim. The LEAF is actually quite consistent in what energy it uses for what job, as you chart shows. Of course it would be even more useful for us if it was in kms.
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Post by Brian on Jun 2, 2013 21:19:33 GMT 11
To show willing, Jim, here is our first reading, although the use was far from typical, and my wife is insisting on a charge, due to an expected trip tomorrow. 100% charge 60 kms on the trip meter 48 kms on the guessometer in Eco * There was some hooning / showing off to passengers following a Sustainable Transport presentation that I gave. * There was one climb back up the hill ( > 700ft ) - descent at full charge, so no regen. * Dropped ' 3 kms ' during very subjective inverter ' trial '. * No air-con - just brief fan to assist de-mist * Temperatures - moderate
Will try to get you a more meaningful reading.
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Post by Jim Hare on Jun 3, 2013 10:40:28 GMT 11
Thanks Brian! Even though it wasn't run down all the way, looks like your results aren't too far from mine. Mine wasn't a typical cycle either, will post a few more as we go.
Keep em coming!
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Post by Jim Hare on Jun 3, 2013 10:45:44 GMT 11
My second attempt was only partial, but did appear to be an improvement.
Drove 68.5 and still had 51 on the guessometre.
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Post by Phoebe on Jun 3, 2013 12:20:00 GMT 11
One reason why mine appears so much better is that my run to Maitland and back is all in a 50kph speed limit area, and I don't exceed the speed limit Actually that's not quite true, one section is 40kph speed limit ;D
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Post by duncan on Jun 3, 2013 14:35:21 GMT 11
Here is the KLM range chart. Again, with credit to TonyWilliams from the US Leaf forums
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Post by Phoebe on Jun 3, 2013 15:10:44 GMT 11
Thanks Duncan. If I read this correctly it explains why my guessometer sometimes tells me I've got 200km range, when I've been going everywhere at no more than 50 kph. And why no-one else's guessometer ever tells them that ;D It also backs up my decision to drive at no more than 75kph on the freeway to Sydney, which has hills, if I want to reach my destination on one charge. It's when we start getting less than this chart says that I guess we think our batteries aren't performing top notch anymore. But don't expect anything like this if you are going fast uphill, with 4 passengers, luggage and the aircon on There's nothing wrong with your batteries, it just takes more power to drive like that!
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Post by Brian on Jun 3, 2013 15:37:23 GMT 11
That's great, thanks Duncan. There is some very useful stuff in there. It's a graphic ( excuse pun ) demonstration that at a constant 56 kph ( ' Phoebe speed ' ) you will go approximately twice as far as you would at 113 kph ( ' Duncan legal speed ' ). It would appear that with our particular location, we loose range due to Elevation, but get it back due to Density Altitude
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Post by Phoebe on Jun 3, 2013 16:09:55 GMT 11
Apologies if I've posted this before. www.pluginamerica.org/surveys/batteries/leaf/Leaf-Battery-Survey.pdf Here is a report of a LEAF battery life survey in America. It seems that while ever you have 12 bars on your guessometer at full charge your batteries are still operating at full strength - if your range is low it's because of your driving conditions.
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Post by David on Jun 5, 2013 20:37:24 GMT 11
Hi Jim Here is my 2 day's worth of driving I did what you proposed, but in D not ECO, I don't think ECO makes a difference unless you normally hoon around Basically, the guessometer starts at about 160km, maintains that myth until it is down to about 80km and then loses about 2km for every Km driven. So I am always confident of getting 120km, but not more than that. My driving is mixed between highway and suburban roads (probably 50/50) with not much in the way of hills couldn't work out how to attach 3 photos to one post, so I will do each one separately. the posts are to show the progressive drop and lack of agreement between actual Km driven and the guessometer. After the last reading, I would only be confident to drive about 20km before charging again Attachments:
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Post by David on Jun 5, 2013 20:38:47 GMT 11
At this point I had been to work and back and then to work again
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Post by David on Jun 5, 2013 20:39:27 GMT 11
with photo this time! Attachments:
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Post by David on Jun 5, 2013 20:44:00 GMT 11
Now back home end of day 2 note how the kms driven are much less than the reduction in Kms on the guessometer As mentioned on previous posts, I always charge to 100% and as you can see, I am still doing about 2000Km per month Attachments:
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Post by Jim Hare on Jun 8, 2013 12:33:51 GMT 11
Hi David, Thanks for the great info! Mine does the same thing. Guess-o-metre looks great until you've driven about 75kms. That's why I'm trying to get everyone to run it right down so I can compare the REAL range is. Here is my latest run, really bad range. I'm going to have a word with Dean as I really don't think this is right.
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Post by Phoebe on Jun 8, 2013 12:44:32 GMT 11
Jim, do you get all 12 bars back when you fully charge - that is what counts.
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Post by Jim Hare on Jun 8, 2013 14:03:34 GMT 11
Sure do, that's what has me scratching my head... All I can figure is that there are a couple of long, somewhat steep hills that we climb virtually every time we come home. Though regenerative braking means we gain a bit on the downhill sections, it's only about half of the energy it takes to climb back up.
The uphill sections probably add up to about 2kms so on a 5km round trip they are certainly a factor.
When our journeys incorporate longer drives, and we get away from our hilly area, our range tends to be better at the end of the cycle.
Maybe it's as simple as that, if 90% of our driving involves challenging hills close to home, perhaps we should only expect 110KM range on a 100% charge.
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