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Post by pharmadave on Dec 6, 2018 13:25:37 GMT 11
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Post by EVangelist on Dec 7, 2018 20:20:59 GMT 11
Nissan gets bagged mercilessly on the Tesla forums for not having a liquid cooled battery. This news will just cause them to double down and convince the Teslarati (not that they needed much convincing) that Nissan has not got a clue. Could be a big misstep.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2018 9:43:58 GMT 11
Drop Nissan for Hyundai
But ioniq also doesn’t have liquid cooling either
Wait for Kona ev, kia eniro, Kia Soul, model 3
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Post by pharmadave on Jan 9, 2019 12:31:42 GMT 11
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Post by Feng on Jan 9, 2019 14:20:49 GMT 11
Nice. Over twice the capacity and twice the motor output as ours. Sounds like it would be loads of fun to drive. Maybe the lack of thermal management is okay depending on your usage patterns (always garaged, etc). Surely the increased capacity means longer battery life because it'll be cycled less.
No plans to upgrade mine, I plan to get the most out of it.
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Post by brunohill on Jan 9, 2019 23:19:05 GMT 11
Are any of these cooling systems going to cool the battery below ambient temperature? Do any of these cooling systems cool the inside of the cell ? Maybe prevention is better than an ineffective cure.
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Post by pharmadave on Jan 10, 2019 8:00:54 GMT 11
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Post by EVangelist on Jan 11, 2019 20:42:17 GMT 11
Telsa owners report incredibly little degradation in battery capacity even after many years - less than 10%. I don’t care how confident Nissan is that passive cooling is fine, I think Tesla have proven active cooling virtually solves battery degradation issues.
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Post by brunohill on Jan 12, 2019 7:49:02 GMT 11
The problem is you need a big expensive battery to run a compressor when the car is not plugged in and not in use. Software can also be written to say what you want to say as well. The customer is always happy when the gauges read better after a service.
Long term it maybe better to develop warmer climate batteries and heat when only required when temperatures are very low. Most Tesla owners would also garage their cars.
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Post by brunohill on Jan 14, 2019 9:03:31 GMT 11
When it is 40'C during the day and 20'C at night my battery stays around 30'C. If I had liquid "cooled" batteries, with a radiator they would heat my battery up to 40'C. There are no fast chargers around here. and I do not travel at 200 Km/hr on the autobahn.
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Post by rusdy on Jan 14, 2019 11:58:09 GMT 11
Telsa owners report incredibly little degradation in battery capacity even after many years - less than 10%. I don’t care how confident Nissan is that passive cooling is fine, I think Tesla have proven active cooling virtually solves battery degradation issues. I previously thought that as well, but there is something that passive cooling have advantage of: cost (due to its simplicity). Also, Tesla battery packs' good performance, I argue, is due to their excellent chemistry. It would be interesting to see the result for cars without active cooling (but with Tesla packs). Unfortunately we don't have that data for comparison. From my own driving experience in the last 3.5 years, I have no major issue with thermal run-away with my Leaf batteries. Even when the summer temperature hit 44C outside, the battery has enough latent heat, so that it doesn't hit the peak daytime temperature. If it stays in Marble Bar where the average temperature is 40-ish C, then that's different story of course  . The actual problem is during 'long range' driving. In my experience, the battery did hit 50C  . 3 contiguous fast DC-charging and high-way driving was enough to hit that threshold (my LeafSpy Pro temperature indication went purple!!!). What really kills it, is how long the temperature stayed high in the next couple of hours (due to the latent heat). Long story cut short, for those who are confined in city driving only (no fast charges), passive cooling EV works absolutely fine, noting the reduced cost advantage. Even if you do 'long distance' driving once a month, I argue, the effect is minimal (not none). Note: 1. Older e-Gold uses same justification; 2. If our Oz leaf (2012) uses active cooling, I bet, it would have similar degradation path (i.e. super sucks). It's the bloody awful choice of chemistry, not the absence of active cooling.
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ant
EV Enthusiast
2012 Leaf, EV enthusiast, AEVA WA Secretary
Posts: 43 
LEAF OWNER?: Yes
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Post by ant on Jan 14, 2019 16:05:08 GMT 11
Telsa owners report incredibly little degradation in battery capacity even after many years - less than 10%. I don’t care how confident Nissan is that passive cooling is fine, I think Tesla have proven active cooling virtually solves battery degradation issues. I previously thought that as well, but there is something that passive cooling have advantage of: cost (due to its simplicity). Also, Tesla battery packs' good performance, I argue, is due to their excellent chemistry. It would be interesting to see the result for cars without active cooling (but with Tesla packs). Unfortunately we don't have that data for comparison. From my own driving experience in the last 3.5 years, I have no major issue with thermal run-away with my Leaf batteries. Even when the summer temperature hit 44C outside, the battery has enough latent heat, so that it doesn't hit the peak daytime temperature. If it stays in Marble Bar where the average temperature is 40-ish C, then that's different story of course . The actual problem is during 'long range' driving. In my experience, the battery did hit 50C . 3 contiguous fast DC-charging and high-way driving was enough to hit that threshold (my LeafSpy Pro temperature indication went purple!!!). What really kills it, is how long the temperature stayed high in the next couple of hours (due to the latent heat). Long story cut short, for those who are confined in city driving only (no fast charges), passive cooling EV works absolutely fine, noting the reduced cost advantage. Even if you do 'long distance' driving once a month, I argue, the effect is minimal (not none). Note: 1. Older e-Gold uses same justification; 2. If our Oz leaf (2012) uses active cooling, I bet, it would have similar degradation path (i.e. super sucks). It's the bloody awful choice of chemistry, not the absence of active cooling.
I would disagree - numerous owners who are confined to city driving , with hardly any DCFC , have experienced excessive degradation ( including myself ) of > 30% over 5 years. |
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Post by rusdy on Jan 14, 2019 16:15:19 GMT 11
Not disagreeing with the degradation. I'm commenting on the effectiveness of active cooling for city driving. In our Leafs example, it's the choice of bad chemistry. The later Leaf ( lizard) chemistry has proven better performance for long term degradation (hence, those Leaf imports are good choice). Not saying active cooling is unnecessary though. However, if I have the choice of significantly reduced cost and active cooling, I would take reduced cost anytime, simply down to my personal driving pattern not requiring me active cooling (I don't race and I don't do long distance driving). Bjorn video of latest Nissan Leaf also emphasised further requirement of active cooling for long distance driving. |
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ant
EV Enthusiast
2012 Leaf, EV enthusiast, AEVA WA Secretary
Posts: 43
LEAF OWNER?: Yes
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Post by ant on Jan 14, 2019 19:00:21 GMT 11
Not disagreeing with the degradation. I'm commenting on the effectiveness of active cooling for city driving. In our Leafs example, it's the choice of bad chemistry. The later Leaf ( lizard) chemistry has proven better performance for long term degradation (hence, those Leaf imports are good choice). Not saying active cooling is unnecessary though. However, if I have the choice of significantly reduced cost and active cooling, I would take reduced cost anytime, simply down to my personal driving pattern not requiring me active cooling (I don't race and I don't do long distance driving). Bjorn video of latest Nissan Leaf also emphasised further requirement of active cooling for long distance driving. Agree our Leafs have bad chem, but not sure exactly how much better the more recent ones ( with lizard cells ) are. And I'm not sure active cooling would be that much more if everyone adopted it. Personally I think degradation is a massive waste of resource. |
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Post by brunohill on Jan 15, 2019 1:43:36 GMT 11
What type of active cooling do you think is best?
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Post by rusdy on Jan 15, 2019 12:24:52 GMT 11
What type of active cooling do you think is best? My personal opinion, Tesla Model-3 has the best systemic approach. They're not just thinking ' hey, how we cool down the battery', but approached it in the whole car thermal management system. If I have the money, I'd definitely put down deposit for model-3, no question ask. They are leap year ahead of everyone else. Alas, I'm stuck with Leaf's first gen chemistry. Sin of early adopters I say...  |
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Post by pharmadave on Jan 16, 2019 11:30:06 GMT 11
Oh dear, it appears that the cells in the 60kwh E-Plus are not actually LG Chem cells. They are from the same factory as the 24, 30 and 40kwh battery.
Here's the youtube link to the information:
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. 3 contiguous fast DC-charging and high-way driving was enough to hit that threshold (my LeafSpy Pro temperature indication went purple!!!). What really kills it, is how long the temperature stayed high in the next couple of hours (due to the latent heat).
